Bloody hell a decent post from you I agree with a lot of what you said especially about our tatics and its my big gripe with Wane he coaches us to just throw the ball around willy nilly and constantly going lateral regardless of field position, instead of earning the right to spread the ball by going forward first. Also our discipline is shocking and as not been addressed through out the season.
We also have too many average players who are not good enough for a team looking to compete for trophies. Wane should be given to the end of the season and if we win nothing which I don't think we will, he should be replaced IMO

Classic "your pack isn't good enough" post from the Mug. Don't you even get bored of typing it all out again yourself every time we lose a match?

I'll stop typing it when someone at Wigan sees the elephant in the room which has been trampling over the fixtures and furnishings all season and finally shoves it out of the door. What do you wan't me to say - Wigan lost because Jupiter is currently in the constellation of Sagittarius?

If it'll make you happier I could just type "YOU LOST. LOLZ!!!!!"

I've been thinking about Wigan's strength in the pack all season and, to be honest, I'm still undecided on whether this is a problem of personnel or tactics.

In any normal side it would be an easy question to answer because the forwards (especially the props) dominate possession of the ball. I'm always wary of over-emphasizing the importance of statistics - but if after ten games you have three props whose stats are broadly similar whilst the other's are way off the curve (and this player isn't some kind of short-duration, "impact" forward) then it doesn't require a degree in rocket science to realise where the problem lies.

But Wane's tactical approach is anything but "normal". Earlier this season I drew a bit of flak for poking fun at Tony Clubb's stats in the Leeds game (as well as Mossop's and Tautai's) - which amounted to a pathetic 3 carries for ten or twenty yards. Joking aside - the point I was making was serious. For a prop forward in a BIG game against one of Wigan's closest rivals these figures were mind-boggling. The first time I saw them I literally did a double-take. I figured he must have gone off injured but I distinctly remembered him being on the field for a good while.

Figures such as Clubb's which, whilst representing the very bottom of the statistical spread, are by no means unusual this season, really do crystallize Wane's attacking philosophy - which I see as one which views prop forward play as little more than a functional necessity - like the play-the-ball. Something to be completed as quickly as possible so that the team can resume attacking play. But they also make it difficult to gauge whether a prop is performing well or not because statistical averages, which are the bedrock of performance indicators in any walk of life, are effectively worthless when the data set isn't sufficiently large (hence the term "statistical significant"icon_wink.gif.

Currently Wigan have, what, six ... seven props (including youngsters)? We're at the end of a long season and right now I couldn't say with any certainty whether any of them are any good or not. The stats suggest not - but Wane's philosophy of putting the ball anywhere but in their hands makes it very difficult for any of them who really are champion material to look good in the stats column - or certainly going forward.

Whether the likes of Clubb or Mossop are champion material I'm not sure. But I'm certain both would be performing considerably better under a more conservative coach. This DOES NOT mean I think Wigan should completely abandon its thrilling attacking style. That would be stupid - not to mention a gross misuse of talent. When I say "conservative" I'm using the word relatively. A good marker to aim for would be the one currently laid down by Tony Smith at Warrington. Retirements and injury mean they don't quite have the personnel this season but I think Smith still strikes the right balance of forward steel vs clinically executed width.

Let's get over the knee jerk stuff and look at it in the cold light of day.

In my opinion there are several key reasons why we lost the match last night and it had little to do with the coach.

Our pack is taking a lot of criticism but it personally felt out Props and the prop rotation was excellent. Our issue in the pack is the lack of size in the Secondrow caused by Tomkins covering the centre. Patrick is one of the worst signings we have ever made and in truth he needs to not play again for us regardless of injuries. Faz and Bateman are both very good players but too easy for defences to cope with if they are both in the field.

A major element of the loss can clearly be put down to individual errors however our spine and leadership came up short yesterday in my opinion at crucial times. 9,13,7,6 and 1 really failed to take the Gabriel by the scruff of the neck and offer a composed response to the Saints pressure. Clearly Bowen has a stinker on a couple of occasions but we lacked control throughout which is more worrying. Williams did reasonably well but Lockers and especially Smith were below par last night when we needed to be calmed down and controlled in the face of Saints pressure.

Final thought is on Charnley. I don't know what is wrong with him and it is a real shame to see at the moment but he is a shadow of the player he once was. Offers nothing in attack and is poor in defence. Not worth a spot in the 17 for me even without Manfredi.

Spot on jonh best post so far,

The problem I have with Bowen is his inability to play well under pressure. How many times did we see him dropping balls like he did last night in big games? I could possibly excuse it if he was a young player starting out, but this lad has played over a decade in the NRL I just can't comprehend how he made those errors last night, it's mind boggling.

Hampshire may have also dropped that high bomb, but at least Hampshire offers a bit of spark in attack, Bowen offered absolutely zero last night.

I'd agree with the points made about Josh, don't know what's happened to him but he didn't look interested last night.

Yes, agreed, jonh. One of the good things this season has been the development of Williams, after a shaky start, into a talented half. But in a big game like last night, he was entitled to more help and support from Lockers and Smith.

As for Bowen, he has shown occasional moments of class, but overall just hasn't been good enough in defence and doesn't offer enough in attack. Frankly hope he doesn't play again. Rocky or Sarge has to be a better option. Or Stefan Ratchford, of course!

Take the anti Bowen blinkers off. He had a bad bounce to deal with then dropped the easy bomb just like Hampshire has done all season. I admit to getting angry when players lose their footing as he did twice (wear proper studs FFS) but he made a couple of excellent tackles and displayed beautiful hands for one of our tries. Was he good enough on the night? No, like many others. However, to say he "offered absolutely zero" is incorrect. Another poster mentioned that SW was supposed to be managing him but all he has done is play him full time. Good coaching?
As for the rest, others have pointed out Charnley and SOL being pale imitations of what they were but who else could SW pick? My biggest gripe is that I'm getting sick of seeing MM being criminally underused by SW. He should be playing far, far longer than he is IMO.

Charnley looks like he's spent too much time in the weight room. Seems very leaden-footed. Has done for a good year or so.

Anyone want to talk about Mossop he is seemingly anonymous does 20 mins and he is hardly ever noticed after that,

That's true about Charnley. When Burgess gets the ball 30m out with a couple of defenders on him, he always looks he has a chance of squirming past them and heading North at a rate of knots (and sometimes does). And in fact you could say the same for Sarge. Haven't felt that about Charnley this season.

+1, and MickyMac has re introduced the obligatory forward pass at the most crucial point of the match. Wigan had no rhythm going forward last night, all the passes fell way behind or blantantly forward, on another day they would have come off. It was so dissappointing because the conditions were near perfect for our game style

Bowen wasn't the only bad thing about last night's performance but he still made crucial errors that directly led to tries. He's made errors like that far too frequently in his time at Wigan, particularly in big games. You can't fault his ability to make one on one tackles to stop breaks. He's exceptional at that. When it comes to kicks though he's been prone to silly errors. He was brilliant against Leeds after a long rest. He's had some excellent games previously too, but they've been few and far between. It seems that if we are going to see the best of Bowen he's going to have to be managed very carefully, missing games frequently.
At the moment though it's getting to the point where it's worth asking if it's sensible to persevere? These costly errors keep happening. He's a shadow of his former self and seems to struggle to be fully fit? Is it worth it? Does he offer anything that no player could replace?

Personally I think Burgess would make an excellent fullback so should be considered as an option when Manfredi returns. He's solid under the high ball, would be a bigger threat than Bowen from kicks, has bags of pace and has shown himself to have excellent handling skills too.

If not Burgess, then give Gabe Fell a few games when Bowen is out of the side. He's playing well enough for the under 19's and is a better fullback than Tierney and Hampshire.

I don't think enough credit was given to Wilkin for the kick. It was outstanding and I doubt many full backs would have taken that.