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Quote: Cruncher "Tomkins is the best attack player in the UK.

Sinfield isn't even the best loose forward.'"


Good job he hasn't played at loose forward for three years then. At least watch the game before commenting.

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Sinfield has to play for me, his kicking game and leadership is crucial. How anyone can say otherwise is beyond me. He's a proven leader and we would be a poorer team without him.

The question is who we play alongside him. I'd also be tempted (as suggested above) to at least try Tomkins in the halves against the Exiles and see what happens.

When we played the Aussies last they built their defensive game plan around stopping Tomkins and it worked, especially in the 4N final. We need different options, and going with Chase/Sinfield/Tomkins doesn't give any flexibility and is very obvious IMO.

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Quote: Albion "Sinfield has to play for me, his kicking game and leadership is crucial. How anyone can say otherwise is beyond me. He's a proven leader and we would be a poorer team without him.

The question is who we play alongside him. I'd also be tempted (as suggested above) to at least try Tomkins in the halves against the Exiles and see what happens.

When we played the Aussies last they built their defensive game plan around stopping Tomkins and it worked, especially in the 4N final. We need different options, and going with Chase/Sinfield/Tomkins doesn't give any flexibility and is very obvious IMO.'"


Now we have options such as Hardaker at FB then I agree, why not try Sam at 6/7?

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We will NEVER beat Australia by playing some form of unstructured, chuck the ball around and hope game. Australia will be moved around by halfbacks who plan and excute a whole set of 6. They will not be phased defensively by panicky offloads or hail mary passes.

Where I think England have a better chance than before is that if everyone is fit and on form we MAY have a pack that can stand up to Australia and even give them a bit of a kicking. If G+S Burgess, Graham, Ellis, Hock and a few others play to their best, I don't think Australia would fancy any kind of forward-oriented game at all.

Again a big if, but if all our best backs play to their absolute best - especially the 3/4s - then we at least look capable of matching Australia physically out wide (I wouldn't suggest for a second we look better).

So, if all goes well it would come down to halfbacks, where sadly we look hopelessly outgunned. I keep changing my mind on Tomkins - in attack he can play the same role regardless, it really comes down to where you want to put him in defence. Sometimes I think at fullback he'll have to make fewer tackles, and then I think of him being rained with bombs.

In any event McNamara picks Sinfield precisely because he offers control, and some kind of kicking game. Ideally we'd have Brough, Chase, Widdopp etc able to do the same. However, Brough looks sketchy at times, Widdopp doesn't run his team, and Chase has very little sense of control at all. I'd love it if GB had a better attacking option than Sinfield who could also control the game, but IMO we don't - or at least nobody who does it consistently.

In the end I suspect that no matter if all our players are fit and in the form of their lives, we'll come undone in large part through not having world class halfbacks. Tomkins is our one genuine hope there, but may be a bit outgunned in a Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in the Empire Strikes Back kind of way.

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Quote: BrisbaneRhino "We will NEVER beat Australia by playing some form of unstructured, chuck the ball around and hope game. Australia will be moved around by halfbacks who plan and excute a whole set of 6. They will not be phased defensively by panicky offloads or hail mary passes.

Where I think England have a better chance than before is that if everyone is fit and on form we MAY have a pack that can stand up to Australia and even give them a bit of a kicking. If G+S Burgess, Graham, Ellis, Hock and a few others play to their best, I don't think Australia would fancy any kind of forward-oriented game at all.

Again a big if, but if all our best backs play to their absolute best - especially the 3/4s - then we at least look capable of matching Australia physically out wide (I wouldn't suggest for a second we look better).

So, if all goes well it would come down to halfbacks, where sadly we look hopelessly outgunned. I keep changing my mind on Tomkins - in attack he can play the same role regardless, it really comes down to where you want to put him in defence. Sometimes I think at fullback he'll have to make fewer tackles, and then I think of him being rained with bombs.

In any event McNamara picks Sinfield precisely because he offers control, and some kind of kicking game. Ideally we'd have Brough, Chase, Widdopp etc able to do the same. However, Brough looks sketchy at times, Widdopp doesn't run his team, and Chase has very little sense of control at all. I'd love it if GB had a better attacking option than Sinfield who could also control the game, but IMO we don't - or at least nobody who does it consistently.

In the end I suspect that no matter if all our players are fit and in the form of their lives, we'll come undone in large part through not having world class halfbacks. Tomkins is our one genuine hope there, but may be a bit outgunned in a Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in the Empire Strikes Back kind of way.'"



Well summed up.

I think we need an element of surprise to beat them but we also just need some control from halfback. Sinfield and Tomkins could 'possibly' bring it for us.

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No one has mentioned what could be an halfback partnership that could be devastating and take the Aussies by surprise.

Keven Sinfield and Paul Wellens.

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Quote: BrisbaneRhino "We will NEVER beat Australia by playing some form of unstructured, chuck the ball around and hope game. Australia will be moved around by halfbacks who plan and excute a whole set of 6. They will not be phased defensively by panicky offloads or hail mary passes.

Where I think England have a better chance than before is that if everyone is fit and on form we MAY have a pack that can stand up to Australia and even give them a bit of a kicking. If G+S Burgess, Graham, Ellis, Hock and a few others play to their best, I don't think Australia would fancy any kind of forward-oriented game at all.'"


Agree.
England should have a strong pack so they will need a #7 with a good kicking game and the ability to link with the back line, Sam Tomkins in particular.
They don't need a headless Chook like Rangi Chase, the best man for the job is Matty Smith.

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Wilkin and Wellens by a mile. . . .

I'd like to see:

1 Lomax (provided he maintains his electric pre-injury form, Hardaker if not)
6 Tomkins
7 Sinfield

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Quote: FearTheVee "Wilkin and Wellens by a mile. . . .

I'd like to see

Ditto.

Sinfield's ability to control a game is crucial against Aus and NZ. I'm determined not to get excited about England as I've foolishly done that before, but if we can keep the main players fit and they fire on all cylinders then we've got the bones of a decent enough team.

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Quote: Guerrier "I'm determined not to get excited about England as I've foolishly done that before, but if we can keep the main players fit and they fire on all cylinders then we've got the bones of a decent enough team.'"


Agree

If I was picking today:

1 Lomax
2 Charnley
3 Pryce (preferred to Atkins as I worry about his defence)
4 Watkins
5 Hall
6 Tomkins
7 Sinfield
8 S Burgess
9 McIlorum
10 Graham
11 Westwood
12 Farrell
13 O'Loughlin

14 Roby
15 G Burgess
16 Hock
17 Hill

You'll probably deride me for bias, but wouldn't be surprised to see Walmsley as a bolter for the squad - looks immense early doors for Saints and would provide more impact than Hill from the bench IMO.

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Quote: FearTheVee "Agree

If I was picking today



Not at all...iirc, he was one of Saints best on Good Friday. Looked very useful.

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Quote: FearTheVee "Agree

If I was picking todayNo Widdop? he out performs both halves and the fullback you mentioned in both positions.

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Quote: TrentBarrett "No Widdop? he out performs both halves and the fullback you mentioned in both positions.'"


In your opinion.

I'm not sure he's a better organiser/kicker than Sinfield or a better full back / 6 than Tomkins.

I perhaps don't watch as much NRL as you so could be wrong.

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Widdop had a shocker in the WCC and looked very weak defensively which we just can't afford.

He'd be in my 25 man squad but not my 17 man team at the moment.

Talking of a 25 man squad and the players that will miss out on the first match day 17 in the World Cup, I think we'll see guys like Hardaker, Briscoe, Widdop, Hill, Farrell etc all sitting on the sidelines waiting for opportunities which shows the strength in depth that has been built up. All of them are quality players that would have walked a first 17 place a couple of years back.

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Widdop was poor in the WCC but by all accounts he's playing exceptionally well in the NRL.
Picking Tomkins at 6 when he won't have played there for three seasons seems wrong to me.
Widdop at 6 with a choice of Brough, Myler, McGuire or Smith for the 7 shirt. I wouldn't have Chase anywhere near the squad never mind the first 17.Chase is an out of form player playing for the bottom placed team in the League. Only McNamara could pick Chase.

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