Roy I remember you telling me that you were there for the presentation.

It was definitely the Bukta shirt I had. As seen on the photo below (not me BTW) also from 1983https://www.assetstorage.co.uk/AssetStorageService.svc/GetImageFriendly/662153107/700/700/0/0/1/80/ResizeBestFit/0/FRU/BC3D8EEEFA99C16F42BF61260A8ED411/gidlow-middle-school-under-12-s-rugby-league-wigan-supporters-cup-winners-wedne.jpg" >

First town to have a motto in the English language.

Correct ! Battle of Wigan lane and all that.

Also, the ancient is connected to the roman settlement that they call "[icoccium[/i" that includes Wigan.

Interesting claim there mate !

Not heard that one before.

Whereas you were there for the battle

Whats the significance of the crest design. I can work out the King, but what about the castle and the lions?

From Wikipedia (I am assuming that common imagery in this and the Ancient and Loyal crest will have similar origins ie castle and lions)

Arms of Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council

The field of the arms consists of alternating gold and black lozenges or diamond shapes. Black lozenges are extensively used in British civic heraldry to symbolise coal mining, while each gold lozenge bears a red rose of Lancaster to represent the union of several Lancashire communities in the metropolitan borough. The chief or top section of the shield displays a couchant lion from the crest of the county borough.

On top of the helm is the crest which consists of a crowned castle and mountain ash tree. The castle and crown were in the county borough arms. The tree is included as a reference to the borough's name: the local name for the mountain ash being "Wiggin Tree".

The supporters are a gold crowned lion from the county borough arms, and a sparrowhawk from the arms of the Atherton family, and found in the devices of Atherton Urban District council and the Borough of Leigh.

Lots of info here.

rlhttps://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/ancientloyal2.php?opt

Yeah. Fills me with a bit of shame that the Ancient and Loyal motto has it's roots in a towns pathetic support of an absolute monarch.

Talk about backward thinking.

Fortunately Cromwell won the war and set the scene for modern democracy as we know it.

And then Charlie came back and strung Cromwell's already dead body up

So Cromwell wouldn't be too fussed I guess..........

In any case that's not the issue. The issue is that the entire democratic world owes Cromwell a favour. Sadly Wigan (as a whole) did not support him in his cause...........

And also Wigan sadly did not support the Miners during the 1920's strike... They instead went back to work eating humble pie.

(Hence the origin pie eaters)

So, If you ever find yourself in the trenches, just pray you are not in there with any Wiganer's

Cromwell? Democratic? He was a barbaric dictator.