but with Roby in the team, I have no doubt they'd have beaten Bradford last night, which is sort of what i'm getting at

Saints problem is way beyond roby not being there, wellens is way too slow now and they have not replaced graham with any quality

They will be there around the top half but the way they are performing this year is not down to one player being missing

Their next games of leeds, warrington and wigan will give a good perspective of where they are

Just remember, that when we started to struggle around 2005, that we could usually lift ourselves to sneak a win against them. They'll be ready for Good Friday.

It will be interesting to see how their fans react, they have record season ticket sales this year. I genuinely hope their fans stick together like we did but I can't see it.

If the next 3 games go the way yopu would hope they would go, leeds wire and wigan, simmons could be sacked easter weekend with saints having lost 7 on the bounce

Leave Simmons, he's doing a great job, just as I knew he would.

Saints just look like they've lost their identity a little and thats through having a lack of leaders at the club now. When they had Graham and Roby last year they could paper over the cracks because those 2 somehow manage to put in almost super human efforts on a weekly basis. They will obviously have Roby back soon enough but he's a leader by example whereas they need a Graham type who did lead by example but would also put a rocket up people.

2 players at Saints that should be leading are Wellens and Wilkin but they're struggling. Wellens physically can't do the things he used to be able to and he gets very easily frustrated when things are going against Saints. That negativity can spread through the side and give you a bit of a victim complex. As for Wilkin I always get the feeling he's the sort of player that will play well when things are going well for his team but when the chips are down he'll go missing.

Tough times for them.

Its difficult working out what's for the best, I mean we could use a Stains win against Leeds AND Wire, before a defeat to us leading to the sacking of Royce..

On the other hand, NOT sacking Royce could be the answer for us

They lose the next 2 against Wire and Leeds. So they go into Good Friday without a win in 7.

That makes them certs to beat us.

I said the same on the first page and I think they will beat us. However, the fact we have not beaten them for the last two games we played in could be great motivation for us.

It depends on how deep the rot actually is.

The law of averages and such don't come into it if a team is losing because there is a major malfunction at the club. In the first half of our relegation season, I never once thought we would win next week because we were due a win. Things were going so wrong at all levels that I couldn't see where our next win was going to come from.

I doubt things are quite that bad at Saints, but it's clearly the case that Simmons is not the right man for that job. In addition, as others have said, they've lost world-beating players in recent years and not replaced them adequately. If the current Saints team has lost all confidence, is uninspired by a poor leader, or is simply not good enough - or a combination of all three - even the passion generated by a Good Friday derby may be insufficient to raise them.

Judging by the shambolic performance being put in at the moment Wigan have a lot in common with Saints.

Yeah but our feelings after 75-0 were about the dark days of the late 80s and 90s when we were your bridesmaids. I'd say the Superleague era has simply evened things up between the two teams, certainly in recent decades.

In the days of relegation when you probably should have been relegated, you'd have been hard pushed to find a Saints fan who actually wanted you to go down. That's not because we love you or anything but because we wanted the rivalry to continue, which it wouldn't have done had you gone down.

At this moment in time we are just as sh[ii[/it as them!

Really? We can go second in the league today! Without that blip at Widnes we could be top of the league.

Saints have been awful. They didn't even look convincing against salford.