Saints just don't have that wow or scare factor about them anymore.

They are a very, very beatable team imo

Nor do we and so are we.

Underestimate St Helens at your peril. They have some superb youngsters coming through with a class act in Soliola and a virtual new signing in Moore. They will not be as weak as some people are claiming.

Too much wishful thinking IMO.

all teams are beatable.

I think what he means is that many teams have gone to Knowsley Road, and rolled over. Where as now teams may go there and fancy their chances. Once that happens, yes all teams are beatable, and some teams are prized as a scalp more than others, and you are still the biggest scalp of the moment, as you have had the most recent success.

I dont think your decline will be as great as many on here, but it COULD be a dificult two years for you especially if the young lads dont quite cut it.

This is not a pop, but if a similar thing happens to you as did us in 2006, I just cant see your fans getting behind you like ours did.

The grand final turnout pretty much validates that point. I totally agree.

your right there

Says a lot though; we were having a really tough time, and instead of people losing interest, ticket sales increased because people wanted to show their support. That'd never happen anywhere else, save maybe Leeds. Definitely not at St Helens.

You can't have it both ways. People in the past have had a pop at Saints not increasing their attendence significantly. But therein lies the logic of the argument. If the attendence figures have not increased to people's liking, then there must have been a good following in the harsher times - and boy were they harsh.

They are but i really don't think you the same force you once were thus many teams will fancy their chances against you.

Teams will no longer have to be at their best to turn you over which is a massive change for Saints. In previous seasons you were always beatable but you had to be at your best this won’t be the case next season.

I can’t see the players that have struggled from wise in Wellens, Gidley, KFC, Meli, Fozzard , Pryce being any better next season in fact they will probably get that little bit slower and suffer from injuries more.

There is a severe lack of pace across the whole of your back line (injury prone Eastmond aside) and again teams will come to Knowsley road with their confidence high of coming away with a win.

Leeds will walk SL next season as players like Webb, Maguire, Burrow, JJB, Sinfield, Hall, Diskin etc all are either just into or coming right into their pomp as pro players.

Of course they will. This is probably good for the League.

We lack the pace and guile, but are in a lot dstronger position than most think. Wheeler should be given a shot at centre which will add to the pace of the backline, and I expect Soliola to play a hard hitting role at second row.

Also believe that one of the youngsters will step up having had the benefit of experience this year.

It's not good for SL as its one less serious threat to Leeds and seeing that there was only one realistic threat around anyway it makes SL another foregone conclusion.

If there is any doubt about the decline of Saints look at the current England team –No Pryce, Wellens or Gardner three big players for Saints that I just can’t see getting anywhere near to their previous best. When you add these names to Cunningham, Gidley, Meli & Fozard and the loss of Long & Gilmour it’s very untreatable why people like myself are starting to question if you’ll be a spent force next season

I note that you are not including the 'aquisition' of Moore and Soliola to
your list? One of those has been included in the England team, the other selected for NZ

I think you touch on valid points. For example the limitations of our wingers is a big bone of contention for me.

My main contention is that as Mark Twain said, rumours of 'our' downfall are greatly exageratted. Some of the prospects we have should just about be able to cover some of the problem areas. Lomax is ready to take over from Wellens, and Gaskell looks ready to lay a claim for a position in the backs. Also watch out for Magennis who would have played this year but for injury.

Not an ideal position to be in though, and much will depend on how MP fairs next year.

I wouldn't underestimate Saints, they will be a good side next season, but the Saints fans on this thread are kidding themselves if they really think that they are going to be stronger next season, they have an ageing squad, are losing key players. Despite a couple of acquisitions and some promising but unproven (unlike Wigan's) youngsters they can't help but be weaker next season. The gap between Saints and Leeds will be bigger than this season.

The good news for Wigan fans is that we don't have to sign anyone to improve - our team is young and we have a new coach who I am convinced will work on fitness and preparation and take things to a much higher level than this season.

Given that the gap between Wigan and Saints wasn't exactly a yawning chasm this season, I am really looking forward to the derby matches next season - for the first time in years we will be able to take on the scousers knowing we are at least as good as them....

I think though that Leeds will still have the edge on us next season; but in 2011 following the departure of Fielden things could well be different.