The Paul Prescott case is not the best example but the Eastmond and Tomkins I hope is a bit more of an eye opener. Eastmond is a year younger than Tomkins and has 10 more appearances than him. He made 16 appearances before Tomkins had ever pulled on a Wigan shirt in a super league game and I re-iterate that he is a year younger. Why wasn't he gradually introduced before? It is a pivitol postion but surely that can be more of a benefit to a side if you can introduce a young homegrown talent with the ability to command that pivitol spot for 10 years. Leeds did it with Rob Burrow as well. I don't have the time to show the statistics but he was given far more games than Sam Tomkins and look how he has turned out.

I don't accept we don't have top class players in the team. Gareth Hock, Sean O'loughlin, George Carmont, Pat Richards, Trent Barrett (When he was here) Bryan Fletcher (When he was here). I could name enough each year. It is a poor excuse. In games when Trent Barrett was injured we played Thomas Coyle - why? When Sam Tomkins had obvious far more potential. Also the signing of Tim Smith - why? He has proven hopeless and is here to rebuild his career and get the next flight to Australia - why not forget about him and give the chance to a young lad who would bust a gut to keep his place in the side? We gradually introduced Tim Smith to regain his fitness - why couldn't we have done this with Tomkins?

It's not just individual players though, saints are a class TEAM so it's alot easier for a young player to come in, but I do agree we do not do it as well as other teams which is a real shame because I think we would all agree in saying that alot of the best talent comes from the Wigan area.

That's so true, St Helens are able to play a youngster and he immediately blends in with the first team, now in Wigan's case we don't seem to be able to do it, whether that's down to poor coaching and integration of youngsters or more likely for me the mentality at the club. ST Helens currently have that feeling of success that not only drives the senior players on to be consistent, but also the youngsters don't want to come in and let the side down, Pride in the shirt you could say.
A Wigan youngster comes in and the team is already playing poorly and they aren't motivated by those around them, where as ST Helens youngsters are able to come and see the likes of Cunningham and Long and they already now what standard is expected and what the senior players expect of them.
For me so much of Wigan's problems lie mentally within the players and staff, and till we overcome that, I personally don't think we can move forward no matter what players we bring in, the mental side of things has to be addressed. By mental I mean mental strength, pride, passion and a never say die attitude.

That may be true regarding the number of games he has actually played but you are not suggesting this was the plan all along? That is he was always going to play in the games he has played in?

If he has reached a quota of games should he not play any more this season?



Which of course means any notion that a young player should only play a certain number of games is daft. If they are good enough they are old enough as Tomkins is proving. Stating a player will only get a certain number of games leaves you with a self imposed restriction you may regret.

I think many of us would have liked to have seen both these players be given the odd game in 2008 because they would have benefited form the experience. Ainscough is 20 in September I think, Sam has turned 20 already. So I think there is something in what the o/p says in that they ought not to be coming from nowhere and at this age and already have more appearances than they do under their belts.

However I don't think prescribing a young player should only play a certain number of games depending what season they are in and at some point simply be dropped regardless of form because he has played a few games (which is what happened to Ainscough) is sensible or beneficial to the player.



So do you think J Tomkins would have been brought through if Lockers had not got injured? I don't and I know others think the same.



Leneghan may well be keen on youth but all of J Tomkins, S Tomkins and Ainscough got the chances they did because of injury or suspensions. Not one of them was deliberately introduced at the time they were to give them some game time. I can't remember if that has ever happened at all under Noble. Prescott and O'Carroll are two of only five props at the club so I don't even think they count as Noble has little alternative but to play one of them if he insists on a four prop team.

We produce the young players but under Noble it has IMO been mismanaged and if the squad remained fully fit I doubt we would have seen Sam T and Ainscough much at all.

Dave

It is a factor in Stains favour but that is still no excuse. If this is the case why don't Wigan have a team? With experienced internationals to help ease the introduction of young players to the squad. Who fault is this?

Well Brian Noble is the man that says the players he wants in the squad.

I think your last part is interesting.

I don't think we have a winning mentality anymore, like we used to. It's the reason why I would love to have people like Farrell, Hanley and Edwards involved. I think your off to a flyer straight away if you believe you can win. Imagine what people think when they see Federer accross the court or Tiger Woods on the score sheet or Ronnie O'Sullivan on the other chair at the crucible or lined up next to Usain Bolt on the track or what teams used to think coming to central park seeing our great players on the other side of the field, we do not hold this threat anymore, we do not believe we will win and the opposition do not think we are more a threat to them than they are to us.

This is a long term thing, we have got ourselves in this mess over many years and saints have built that amazing team over many seasons, which is why we should be building now, but are we really? I am not sure.

IL said he had a 4/5 year plan when he took over. Does the recruitment suggest this with the obvious flaws in the side i.e prop forward, quality halfback, leadership.

I'm not sure who is to blame for that Brian Noble or IL.

At age 20 both Burrow and McQuire featured in every game Leeds played that season. They started some games and came off the bench in others but they played in something like 26 or more matches.



It is a poor excuse but not just because we have some experienced players around. Other sides besides Leeds and Saints are playing younger players than Tomkins and Ainscough regularly. Is Myler at Salford suffering because he hasn't got top class players to guide him? Seems to be doing OK to me.

Dave

Not to mention Joe Westerman and Sam Burgess. Hardly in a quality world class outfits themselves.

At the height of are success, I always remember my dad pointing at the opposition team and saying that they were already mentally beaten, and all it would take would be an early try and the opposition team would crumble even further, that was a major difference for me that helped the great team of the 80's and 90's have so much success, that the opposition would turn up already mentally beaten.
ST Helens on Friday night put 50 past Cas, don't tell me that those Cas players don't remember that hiding they got earlier in the season from Saints and were probably dreading playing on Friday night in fear of what might happen. Once somebody's mentally beaten there pretty much out of it.
We at Wigan are suckers for always going down first against less fancied teams just like Celtic on Saturday, Celtic once they scored visibly improved and gained in confidence, had we gone on to score early and first I can just imagine there heads dropping and the game becoming increasingley easier for us.

The difference between us and saints before the game has even started is that we look at the other team and think we can win but saints look at themselves and know they are more then capable of beating any team.

Add to that the likes of Ellis at Wakey, Wilkin at Hull KR, im sure theres plenty more. Its common knowledge IL is looking hard at why so many youngsters come through at Wigan but dont go all the way to the top.

Kris Radlinski explains why in his book. Read it.