our problem is we set our teams standards too high. From what i can see, our team is just NOT good enough I mean, we are leagues behind leeds and Saints in both perfomance on the pitch and our consistency over the season. Its all well and good pulling off a magical victory at Leeds, but following it on with a dodgey home win to a "lesser side" is not championship winning-material. At the end of the day we sign average and exspensive players, who generally under-perform and fail to meet expectations, never mind exceed them, with the odd exception eg) barrett. Players such as Mathers, pryce, roberts, smith, fielden, riddell are all fine examples of players who have done nothing but waste vital space in our salary cap and destory the hopes of many talented young budding super league stars in our academy. At the moment we are putting too much pressure on the shoulders of tomkins and ainscough. Ok they have amazing potential; but to expect them to lead the team to grand final glory is simply ridiculous and further highlights the lack of effort our more experienced players (eg Riddell) are putting into playing and leading the team.

I like how you got a Noble-ism in. There was no stand offs or props available that would be better than what we have? I dont believe that for 1 second. We knew Trent was going for a while before the end of last season so they had plenty time to put the feelers out and weve needed another prop for 18 months now. How long do they want?

Tell me which halfback we should of signed then Dave to replace Barrett. While your at it which props to strengthen the front row. The truth is we missed out on Todd Carney and Greg Bird but it didnt matter anyway as we couldnt of signed them in the long run. The players that have been signed are fine if you look at the bigger picture of building the team/squad.

Your opinion of Noble being a poor coach is just that-your opinion.

We could not sign one though we tried in Bird. We could not sign him because we had used the quota up on Phelps and Roberts. The rebuilding you keep banging on about is a shambolic effort.

In any case the current results are down to the current team under performing. While we all recognise we need a prop it won't make that much of a difference if we continue to see things like one man RL, seemingly unfit players (Riddell is a joke) and a defence that caves in far too easily.

The team is playing very poorly and your idea that this will all be solved by recruitment for next year is too simplistic. Recruit who you like but unless the team they join bucks up and is better coached we will be writing the same thing next year.

Dave

It is one I can back up with evidence. You on the other hand cannot back up your opinion he is a Wigan good coach with any evidence at all.

Dave

The fact is there wasnt any other than Greg Bird and Todd carney which we tried to sign and failed for whatever reason and even had we got them they wouldnt of been able to play for us. We have to be prepared to crack a few eggs to make an omlette

As this now seems to be going down the Noble route again. I'm been having a think of who has been signed that it could be claimed Noble was part of the decision to make the signing. Off the top of my head I can think of:

Fielden
Dobson
McAvoy
Mathers
Carmont
Pryce
Roberts
Coley
Riddell
Bailey
Gleeson
Smith
Phelps
Withers

That's 14 players - have I missed any? Haven't included Barrett and Lulu because they were both recruited prior to Noble joining us. Obviously some were very short term for 2006 and others have been and gone, but that's a lot of players we've changed over three seasons.

I like how you say Wigan coach. Does the fact that he won the lot at his previous club not set the alarm bells ringing that the team at his disposal at Wigan is simply not up to the task rather than Noble suddenly becoming a poor coach?

I think there's a bit of fantasising going on here.

First of all, I can't believe you ask that question about 'what errors are these'. Do we see Noble and the team making anything but errors at present? I certainly don't. We've played well on two occasions this season so far - against Bradford, who we can now see are actually very poor, and against St Helens, who still managed to beat us.

As for the bit about Trent. You can't on one hand dismiss people's desire to replace him like for like, and then, on the other, airily state that we should have kept him. They guy was gone. He didn't want to stay; he reckoned he'd retire if we held him to his contract - and much of the reason for that, if certain players are to be believed, was Brian Noble, who Trent simply didn't rate.

As others have said, at present we're a bad side. We're not that bad on paper - we've got a number of good players. But this team is not the sum of its parts (by ANY stretch of the imagination), and the responsibility for that must stop with the coach.

You can continue to keep thinking deeply about it all but the fact is we did not replace Barrett leaving us with no real halfback in the entire squad and the props are terrible. No matter which way you dress it up that is 2 of the most important areas on the field that we are awful in. You simply cannot play the game being so poor in those areas and expect great things to happen no matter who the coach is.

Do you know of any team that has ever done well with no half decent halfback and such a poor front row?

He has been long enough at Wigan for his performance here to influence whether he is considered a good coach or not. His performance as coach at Wigan is pretty dire and would IMO have been even worse were it not for Barrett for two seasons.

Harking back to his Bradford days and saying that proves he is a good coach fly's in the face of the evidence that has been on show weekly since 2007.

You make it sound as if he was/is hamstrung to do anything about the current level of performance we are getting from the team. I can't seriously believe you think he can have so little influence on the group of players we have, several of which are current internationals.

Dave

But why have we got no decent half back and a poor front row? Il tell you why look at our signings in the last couple of years.

Phelps
Mathers
Pryce
Roberts
Gleeson
Tim Smith
Riddell
Carmont
Coley

7 backs 1 prop who played 2nd row for a relegated team and 1 hooker.

And saying hes a poor coach in his Wigan days means hes a poor coach flys in the face of the evidence that was on show when he was at Bradford.

You cant have it both ways Dave, he didnt win things at Bradford through luck,he had a very good set of forwards which is key to any team being sucsessful which he has not got at Wigan. Oh also add the that a halfback that kick the ball with regular accuracy and do more than keep running back on an angle stepping in and out.

Whilst we are on about coaches should we carry on and bring Millward into it? Another coach who failed at Wigan despite winning the lot at his previous club?

I am sorry but after the amount of coaches we have sacked over the past 10 years i can no longer keep blaming the coach as sacking them in the past didnt work so i dont see how it will work now.

Based on the fact you can no longer just go and sign the worlds best in every position the following players moved that Wigan could have bid for...

Half Backs Chris Thorman, Luke Dorn, Brett Kimmorley, Rangi Chase, Jeremy Smith - they are not wonderful i'll agree but would have more of an impact than Tim Smith has come up with so far - Tomkins has it all before him but needs lots of time and a decent pack.

Props Michael Korkidas, Gareth Carvell, Nick Fozzard, Tony Puletea, Jason Ryles, Antonio Kaufusi... IMO are all better than Coley and (the current) Fielden - also Nick Scruton, Garrett Crossman and Ray Cashmere would have been better than nobody

Don't say none were available - maybe they are not good enough in your eyes but not many won't agree they would have improved the current line up