FORUMS > Wigan Warriors > Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE |
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| I wish other clubs would follow suit with Wigan and Saints anyway. Imagine how strong the league would be if everyone put as much effort in as Wigan, Saints and Leeds. It’s a mystery why they’ve won every first team Grand Final between them in the last 18 years (and plenty before).
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| Without a doubt this is not me saying "Oh look what Saints are doing that no-one else is" I'm well aware that Wigan and to a lesser extent Leeds do the same.
What I am surprised at though is the decision taken by Saints. We have been knocked off our perch and instead of trying to sign players to get back to the top, we are gambling on youth. Very similar to Utd and the Class of 92 lot.
Now clearly there is a big difference between football and rugby particularly from a physical point of view and 18 year old lads will struggle against fully grown men who have had years of strength & conditioning. Noah Stephens for example has looked outstanding at Academy Level but will be a world of difference at SL level. He may well not even play a game next season. However conversely, he will come on as a player as a full time professional so his body will change and get fitter too.
It tells me that Saints have little SC space to play with due to upgraded deals and back-ended contracts for the likes of Lees and Knowles for example.
Personally I think we as Saints fans are in for a couple of relatively lean years as the old guard moves on but if 2 or 3 of the new lot can turn into a Welsby, Lees, Knowles, Dodd or a Lomax then we will be in a good position in time.
Vaughan is the one that is certainly IMO the most highly rated at the club.
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3076_1671446335.jpg SAINTS THE ORIGINAL AND PERENNIAL CHEATS
For sale full Saints kit (circa 1989). Shirts in pristine condition, but shorts badly soiled.
For 27 - 0 you get a trophy
For 75 - 0 you get sod all.
Wigan had eight in a row
Saints have five in a row:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_3076.jpg |
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| Quote: Stu M "Without a doubt this is not me saying "Oh look what Saints are doing that no-one else is" I'm well aware that Wigan and to a lesser extent Leeds do the same.
What I am surprised at though is the decision taken by Saints. We have been knocked off our perch and instead of trying to sign players to get back to the top, we are gambling on youth. Very similar to Utd and the Class of 92 lot.
Now clearly there is a big difference between football and rugby particularly from a physical point of view and 18 year old lads will struggle against fully grown men who have had years of strength & conditioning. Noah Stephens for example has looked outstanding at Academy Level but will be a world of difference at SL level. He may well not even play a game next season. However conversely, he will come on as a player as a full time professional so his body will change and get fitter too.
It tells me that Saints have little SC space to play with due to upgraded deals and back-ended contracts for the likes of Lees and Knowles for example.
Personally I think we as Saints fans are in for a couple of relatively lean years as the old guard moves on but if 2 or 3 of the new lot can turn into a Welsby, Lees, Knowles, Dodd or a Lomax then we will be in a good position in time.
Vaughan is the one that is certainly IMO the most highly rated at the club.'"
Prop forwards like Stephens are always "interesting" They dominate at junior level but you can never be sure how they are going to develop. Are they good because they physically dominate at that level because of their size?
.
You look back at the likes of Sami Kibula and Levy Nzoungou who smashed everything and everybody in front of them at junior level but never progressed.
I like Robertson at Saints, not sure if he's a #1 or #6.
Good luck in finding a replacement for Lomax, he's a once in a generation player and so influential at Saints, very much like O'Loughlin was at Wigan.
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| Quote: Rogues Gallery "Prop forwards like Stephens are always "interesting" They dominate at junior level but you can never be sure how they are going to develop. Are they good because they physically dominate at that level because of their size?
.
You look back at the likes of Sami Kibula and Levy Nzoungou who smashed everything and everybody in front of them at junior level but never progressed.
I like Robertson at Saints, not sure if he's a #1 or #6.
Good luck in finding a replacement for Lomax, he's a once in a generation player and so influential at Saints, very much like O'Loughlin was at Wigan.'"
Loosing lockers set us back massively. Even now when we go down we don’t seem to have the same drive as what we did when lockers was the captain. Saints will do well to replace Roby, Lomax, Makinson and Walmsley when the time comes
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27542_1296773722.jpg RICHARDS IS SUPERMAN!!!!
Wire_91 wrote:its your first final in about 8 years and now you ravin and rantin about it F**k off, and ill be going old trafford tomoz cheering on the saints and ill be writing on this forum givin you loads of shi* when your drying you eyes and the wire fan will be here handing out the tissues in the thousands, thats if you do take that many fans cause now it looks like its your fans who have jumped on the band wagon now your in a final, this time last year there was only 1000 people in the jjb and now its fillin up cause youve won the league hahaha proper true supporters you are:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_27542.jpg |
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| Quote: WWste "Loosing lockers set us back massively. Even now when we go down we don’t seem to have the same drive as what we did when lockers was the captain. Saints will do well to replace Roby, Lomax, Makinson and Walmsley when the time comes'"
Roby now gone
Lomax is 34 next year
Walmsley is 34 next year
Makinson is 33 next year
If Dodd and Welsby go to the NRL that’s some rebuild needed.
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29146.gif Keep goin wit yed down:29146.gif |
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| Quote: Stu M "Without a doubt this is not me saying "Oh look what Saints are doing that no-one else is" I'm well aware that Wigan and to a lesser extent Leeds do the same.
What I am surprised at though is the decision taken by Saints. We have been knocked off our perch and instead of trying to sign players to get back to the top, we are gambling on youth. Very similar to Utd and the Class of 92 lot.
Now clearly there is a big difference between football and rugby particularly from a physical point of view and 18 year old lads will struggle against fully grown men who have had years of strength & conditioning. Noah Stephens for example has looked outstanding at Academy Level but will be a world of difference at SL level. He may well not even play a game next season. However conversely, he will come on as a player as a full time professional so his body will change and get fitter too.
It tells me that Saints have little SC space to play with due to upgraded deals [size]and back-ended contracts[/size] for the likes of Lees and Knowles for example.
Personally I think we as Saints fans are in for a couple of relatively lean years as the old guard moves on but if 2 or 3 of the new lot can turn into a Welsby, Lees, Knowles, Dodd or a Lomax then we will be in a good position in time.
Vaughan is the one that is certainly IMO the most highly rated at the club.'"
Didn't Wigan get accused of going against the spirit of the cap for doing that?
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| Quote: NickyKiss "I wish other clubs would follow suit with Wigan and Saints anyway. Imagine how strong the league would be if everyone put as much effort in as Wigan, Saints and Leeds. It’s a mystery why they’ve won every first team Grand Final between them in the last 18 years (and plenty before).'"
Agree 100%
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| Quote: proper-shaped-balls "Didn't Wigan get accused of going against the spirit of the cap for doing that?'"
We did but I think it was the fact that we did it mid season to panic buy Fielden and Dobson that was seen as being against the spirit.
Contracts that increase year on year are common in sport
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| Quote: --[ WW ]-- "--"We did but I think it was the fact that we did it mid season to panic buy Fielden and Dobson that was seen as being against the spirit.
Contracts that increase year on year are common in sport'"
From what I remember it was the staggered payment of the Fielden contract that was deemed against the spirit, not the timing of the signing. Against the spirit or not I actually thought it was genius from Maurice.
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65656_1708941604.jpg [size=95:2obtgspq]23 LEAGUE TITLES[/size:2obtgspq]
[size=95:2obtgspq]21 CHALLENGE CUPS[/size:2obtgspq]
[size=95:2obtgspq]5 WORLD TITLES[/size:2obtgspq]
[b:2obtgspq][color=#FF0000:2obtgspq][size=100:2obtgspq]SAYS IT ALL REALLY[/size:2obtgspq][/color:2obtgspq][/b:2obtgspq]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_65656.jpg |
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| Quote: MadDogg "From what I remember it was the staggered payment of the Fielden contract that was deemed against the spirit, not the timing of the signing. Against the spirit or not I actually thought it was genius from Maurice.'"
I'm pretty sure that was it too. Whilst contracts can improve, you can't pay someone £250 in year one and then £400k in year 2. I know that's an extreme example, but you get my drift.
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16032_1698179828.jpg "[color=#800080:2tf4iz4f]BOHICA[/color:2tf4iz4f]":d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_16032.jpg |
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| Quote: MadDogg "From what I remember it was the staggered payment of the Fielden contract that was deemed against the spirit, not the timing of the signing. Against the spirit or not I actually thought it was genius from Maurice.'"
It was and it didnt break any rules so they made one up...
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| Did we not adjust some of the contracts of existing players to make room for the Fielden and Dobson? That was my understanding but I'm trying to pick a nearly 20yr old memory from a time when I really enjoyed myself at games so any conversations I had might have been misunderstood on my part
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| Quote: --[ WW ]-- "--"Did we not adjust some of the contracts of existing players to make room for the Fielden and Dobson? That was my understanding but I'm trying to pick a nearly 20yr old memory from a time when I really enjoyed myself at games
Yes that rings a bell. Whether or not we should have been deducted points the following year given there was no explicit rule regarding staggered payments is up for debate. But regardless, it was IMO a very smart move which may well have saved the club from relegation. Ruthless, possibly unethical but smart. We significantly reduced our chances of competing for trophies in subsequent years as the cap was so top heavy with Barrett and Fielden but we stayed alive in SL. Who knows if relegation would have led to us being in a similar position to where Bradford have been over the last decade.
I imagine it was a big factor in the salary cap becoming 'live' a few years afterwards - with the current system Lindsay couldn't have done what he did.
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| Re Saints fans insults I agrre it's embarasing. Sadly it's something that's crept in amongst certain sections of our fan base over the last few years
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| The Saints fans who come on here and contribute (Stu & Yellow Giraffe) know their stuff and are obviously sensible people who love RL. Always enjoy their insights from a non-Wigan fan perspective.
However, RedVee in the main is the picture of ignorance. One post caught my eye which stated that young George Delaney was better than Kade Ellis! Ellis was arguably the best prop in a SL winning side. Also the same post forgot to even acknowledge Liam Byrne, they forgot about him! As I say, ignorance must be bliss.
I think our problem next year in the forwards is simply keeping everyone happy. On paper, we should be looking at multiple trophies IMO. But rugby isn't played on paper, unfortunately.
I still think there will be a few departures. Hill and Shorrocks to name two.
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