It’s very close between Knowles and Smithies for me. I think Smithies had the better season but Knowles has had better seasons than Smithies 2023 level in years gone by. I do think there’s potential Smithies goes past Knowles in the coming years as he’s younger and is going to test himself in a better comp. I think Knowles should have already looked to test himself in the NRL and if the opportunity comes up again, he should go. I do think he’s gone a bit stale at Saints and he lost his way a bit in 2023. You could make a strong case to say he’s not the best loose forward at Saints tbh.

Personally, I think Knowles is a fine player and is, at this stage, a better player than Smithies.

I just dont think he belongs on the pedestal that most Saints fans put him on

I think thats a fair assessment. Smithies is a few years younger so may well end up becoming the better player I agree.

Its just ironic that Wigan fans keep saying Smithies is the better player yet Mr Wigan himself- Wane selects Knowles over Smithies so its a strange argument to have when you look at the facts.

Re the NRL point it was known that Knowles was severely tempted but had a baby boy at the time of the interest and said that it was bad timing and he needed his family around him.

I also agree that he wasn't the best LF at Saints last season. Bell was magnificent and gave us more in attack when he played there (and yes I know how God awful our attack was but you take my point)

He also definitely needs to be smarter with his discipline which to be fair he did seem to sort at the back end of the season.

Smithies was still on the ale in Dublin just prior to the 1st test match.

The Saints players played in the WC last year after the GF

I'm pretty sure if Smithies knew he was being selected he'd have stayed at home.

I think Wane is trying to build a culture of trust and continuity personally and it’ll take players knocking doors down to displace guys already in the squad. That is generally a successful formula in international sports like Football and Cricket, so I don’t think it’s always as straightforward as a coach thinks player X is currently outperforming player Y.

I think Smithies, Cam Smith and Minchella have all had better seasons than Knowles but I can see why Knowles was selected ahead of them and I probably would’ve made the same call tbh.

There you go Stu you are showing traces of anti-Wigan rhetoric.

Knowles height and weight is taken from St Helens website, he simply isn’t big enough for a prop. You may be right about Smithies because there is no official figures on Wigan’s website. Having said that I am not the one making these ludicrous statements it’s one of your own.

I will let you quote the stats relating to minutes played, I look forward to interpreting them when they are available. As it stands, I am happy to debate based on the SL statistics which use the number of games played.

Waney will have his reasons for selecting Knowles as will the Aussies for pursuing Smithies and not Knowles.

It is quite clear to me that the crap posted on Redvee is not thought through in the majority of cases, or supported with facts. In essence it is just views biased against Wigan. It is not a coincidence that Wigan have just won a GF. Whether you agree with it or not, and I really don’t care, I have tried to give a balanced view.

Regarding Waney, you are happy to pick and choose when you support his statements. I think you have shown your true colours these last few weeks.

You keep using Redvee as a stick to beat all Saints fans with when in actual fact a lot of decent Saints fans admit that there are idiots on there. In fact if you read it today you would see me and The Yellow Giraffe arguing with one such idiot.

Secondly I don't agree with everything Wane says or does but I do agree with some. I admitted that I agreed with his comments over Wellens just that they should've been kept private.

I don't think Knowles should play prop by the way.

My true colours? I'm hardly going to be pro-Wigan am I? However in the main I am balanced and fair. If you want to know my username on RedVee I'll PM you and you will see just today that I have been praising Wigan for being forward thinking and stockpiling props.

And I have been posting on here before and after the GF so I've hardly gone into hiding just because you've won a comp.

Reacher

He was the last one home so he sort of deselected himself from the first test.

In fairness to Stu, I think Smithies would’ve been on the plane with Smith, King and Farrell (who were also in Dublin) if needs be but presumably he knew he hadn’t been called up and therefore stayed on.

On a side note, I wish we had a couple less top class loose forwards and a couple more top class hookers. I can’t blame Wane for picking Radley and Knowles, as both are class acts but so are Smithies, Minchella and Cam Smith. He’s picking at most 2 from 5, yet at hooker and to a lesser extent Fullback, we’re scratching around for options (I say fullback because we have Welsby and then….errr….nobody really. Maybe Brierley at a push).

Come on Stu it’s the No.1 website for everything Saints, what am I going to conclude when I read that crap? I don’t know what you call yourself on that site so I couldn’t comment.

I don’t expect you to be an agreeing with everything posted on here, I certainly don’t. Other posters probably view my posts in the same way. Nevertheless, since we won the LLS and GF you have undoubtedly turned bitter. Fine, I don’t expect you to like the fact, I would think the same about Saints. But what I would like to see is some reasoned rebuttal of posts on this site rather than just making spurious claims. Your claim earlier that I didn’t drill down far enough to make my comparisons between Smithies and Knowles was just trying to avoid reasoned debate. Now, if you had produced another set of facts rather than dismissing mine out of hand that would have been acceptable.

I don’t think I’ve been bitter to be honest. I’ve only really had a pop at Wane in his guise as England coach.

Furthermore I was big enough to hold my hands up last night and say that I may have mis-interpreted the Newman article (despite Phuzzy still continuing the argument)

I just found it strange that you produced a selection of stats that didn’t really provide a like for like comparison for a player that has been overlooked for England by the player that you are trying to say is inferior. Moreover the coach who has made the said selection is Mr Wigan.

I’ve said on this forum that since the CC SF Wigan have been the best team in the comp and deserved winners. I’ve been accused on Red Vee of a hysterical overreaction for having the temerity to suggest they may now embark on a dynasty with the signings made.

If that’s bitter then that’s your opinion. I certainly don’t think it is.

Smithies had a much better season than Knowles in 2023.

The vast majority of RL fans know that.

Knowles will bounce back though.

I rate Knowles but by his standards he’s had an average season. I totally agree that 2024 we will see the “old” Knowles. I like his aggressive style and his intensity. I don’t see his handling skills that Wane refers to but that may be my lack of regular and in depth review of his performances.
Smithies has improved enormously since Peet took on the Head Coaching role. His handling skills have improved to the point that he is, for me, now a better all round player than Knowles but again that could be because I see more of Smithies than Knowles. What I do know is that 90% of RedVee contributors will never rate Smithies because he played for Wigan. An insular and at at times a cesspit of vile comments with infantile references to us as Wigoons and Scum.
On balance I’d take Smithies over Knowles probably 8 times out of 10 primarily down to his better all round skills and
His far superior discipline.