Probably an argument over how they both want to play Sundays ha

Not read all this thread so forgive me if this has been said already:

Is there any other sport where being any good at the game mattered so little, all the franchise system sems to revolve around is how shiney is your ground and where in the country are you based.

There is a real danger that the game could be ruined beyond repair by both expansionism and striving for unrealistic investment in facilities that no one will use.

My points are: -

Widnes are looking nailled on for a franchise, yet there playing record over the last 3 years has been at best patchy in a league that if they have such a great set up they should walk all over. They seemed to target the NR cup in the 1st year, won it with loanees then sat back with a cigar because that was the box ticked. Surely this can't be the best way to conduct a valid bid fpr promotion.

Don;t get me wrong I thig Widnes will add to SL but the way the criteria is achieved leaves a little to be desired.

Most think the expansionist clubs are safe, Catalans I agree should be, good crowds, genuine acceptance of the game in perpignan and had a (this year apart) good performances in the league / cup.

Quins and crusaders I'm not too sure about. A crowd of 1100 cannot be acceptable, Every time I've been to quins there has been such low attendances its almost embarassing and the general interest in the side in the community seems to be almost nil. Crusaders lost there expansionist tag when they moved 20 mins from warrington / widnes so maybe it'll be them to go..

Big difference between merging and just groundsharing. Of course they'll never merge, but groundsharing makes sense - personally I'd prefer sharing with Saints rather than Lactics - not only would the pitch not get ruined, but it would be easier to arrange fixtures without interference.

quite right Geoff

I really dont see their problem to be honest. Both were moving to new locations just off the M62 a junction apart why cant they share 1 stadium? It's ridiculous. To be honest if i was one of their fans and someone said to me "hey you can have a brand new purpose built RL stadium but you have to share it with a team right next door" then I'd say "hell yeah we need that" not moan about it.

I can't believe nobody is even mentioning Hull KR and Bradford.

Hull KR - £3 million in debt. A hole of a ground. Very few youth players coming through (of their best 2 young players in the 1st team at the moment 1 is from Wigan and 1 from Cas). They have good away following and good finishing position last year going for them. They have also made the play offs this year.

Bradford - Their stadium is nothing more than a modified quarry (and by modified I mean they added steps), very little of it is covered. On the field, they didn't make the play offs last year and wont this year. Their attendences have fallen dramatically over the past 18 months aren't that much higher than Cas at the moment. Youth... not that great. Steve crapbanana seemed loathed to give youth a chance and stuck with the ancient aussies and ex national league players.

Wakey - Hole of a ground (not even a hole that they own) no chance of building a new one in time, a director who has an IVA, and were late paying their tax bill. On the field, they made the play offs last year and were academy champions!!!

Cas - Ground not good enough (but at least its a place that people seem to like coming to unlike Hull KR), the stadium won't be done in time but at least it is progressing (watch the sky match V Leeds on friday for updates on the new ground). On the field they made the playoffs last year and IMO are one of only 2 teams that can grab 8th this year. The squad has loads of Cas academy products in it, away at Hull KR where they only lost in the last second of the game there were 6 cas academy products in the team (would have been 7 if Owen was fit). Only Wigan and possibly Saints can compete with that. The finances of the club are also good comapred to most others.

For what it's worth I agree with most people about Quins, it would be nice to have a team in London but it aint working. Move then to Milton Keynes. It worked wonders for Wimbledon FC crowds!

Tooting and Mitcham had a team in the forties I think.

I am also surprised that nobody seems to tip Hull KR to leave. I have never been there so don't really have a strong opinion on the place, but if you are trying to create a league with geographical spread, I fail to see how you can have two of the fourteen clubs coming from the same city.

As for Widnes, whilst the ground is fine, the town itself is a fearful dump. After a couple of visits in recent years, I am certainly not looking forward to going again. On the other hand, the rugby league side really is all the town has to shout about, so perhaps it will do the place some good to get back into Super League.

However if it was up to me I would get Toulouse and Barrow in, partly to expand the game, and partly to kick on in France and give Catalans a derby to get excited about.

Hull KR is no worse for away fans than Leeds or Bradford

Leeds ground needs a revamp on 3 sides but they will not be made to do it. Must be a bit shaming for Yorkshire CCC to have a nice updated facility and a rugby ground at the side of it that belongs in the last century.

I quite like Bradfords ground its a natural amphitheater dont suppose it would take much to put a roof all around the ground. It is outdated but it does have that something about it.

Quins won't go but they should, a few years in The Championship will do them good.

Only thing that would do is make them go out of business. Over the last few years they have done well recruiting local players. Its a must for Rugby League to have a foothold at top level in London. Same as it is in Wales there are lots of players in both but most so far play Union we need to tempt some of them to League.

For me France should stand on there own and have there own Super League but that is just my opinion.

We're making losses and have an over all loss over a number of years but this is not a debt as such as its underwritten by the board and in effect is not any different from Hudds and wire (not sure of Wigans books but pretty sure you're running at a loss as well). The ground is far from ideal from an away fans point of view but is pretty good from the home areas and has been improved upon consistently in the years since we got into SL. New floodlights, Playing surface improvements, east stand extension, new training facilities even the temporary stand is and improvement on what was there. We have plans in place for a further east stand extension and a new north stand which shold tick all the boxes. Add to that if we get a re-arranged fixture or a play off we can actually use our own ground as well (sorry couldn;t resist)

As for the geographical impact of 2 Hull teams, that argument would be more loaded against widnes as distances between the grounds are as follows

Wid - Wire 7 miles
Wid - Sts 7 miles
Wire - Sts 8 miles

with Wigan and Salford all within 20 miles of the each other.

Fc and KR are 5.5miles apart so there is very little difference between all of the clubs.

The irony of this suggestion is something similar was put forward by Mo when SL was first conceived. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out there are too many teams too close together in West Yorkshire to all have top grounds and be competitive.

The trouble is no one would support the West Yorkshire Wildcats (or Calder as I think Mo's suggested team would have been called). So you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. That leaves only one solution long term, both Cas and Wakey to lose their franchise to a club in area not so overcrowded with RL teams who can get a good ground and big crowds. This is probably far too radical to ever happen as was "Calder" but logically it makes sense.

Dave