FORUMS > Wigan Warriors > Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE |
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| Quote: The Yellow Giraffe "I get your point but again I don't think you can compare the two things (Asiata and Lees) in terms of player welfare, which was what his rant was based around originally. Like I said if he was appealing or defending Bell or any type of cannonball tackle for example then yeah fair enough I would've thought "what are you doing you clown" and I would agree about hypocrisy. I just don't see it in this instance. There is no player welfare issue with the Lees tackle on Greenwood.'"
There isn’t a player welfare issue because they banned the player who hit Greenwood high and that is what Wellens wanted with the Asiata tackles. He then is part of an attempt to get a player off on a technicality and that doesn’t add up or sit right IMO.
Ultimately I think most people are broadly in agreement in terms of the main issues. The disciplinary is a mess and needs urgent attention. It’s inconsistent and as proven by Saints appealed appeals, it’s open to be challenged on technicalities, so it can’t be water tight. There is too much focus on head knocks and not enough on other issues. The amount of time spent debating all of the above only highlights what a mess it is. It’s become the most discussed subject, when the disciplinary process should just sit in the background and tick along.
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| Quote: NickyKiss "You raise decent points at times but when you throw childish comments in like 'scrubbers in council houses' people will just stop reading. People come on here and debate things and won't always agree and that's absolutely fine. You throwing out insults only makes one person look silly tbh.'"
Maybe my choice of words wasn't the best, but the only thing that looks silly is the game.
You rightly, or wrongly beat the drum about the "good of the game" and then aren't happy with people calling a spade a spade. Do you think interviewing that guy in his garden boosted , or improved the perception of the game to either new fans or sponsors? There was probably a better way of me putting it, but it's like it went out of the way to belittle the town and sport.
Those are the issues facing RL, not Saints doing their utmost to keep a winning streak going. Wellens can be as hypocritical as he wants - must top coaches are (not saying he is one by the way) Wayne Bennett, Fergie, Mourinho, Pep all start little fires here or there to either motivate or distract. You think when Fergie moaned about fixtures post CL games he cared about the other teams players? It was all about getting an advantage for United.
ATEOTD, we're both big clubs and we should be right behind the m on this.
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| Quote: Stu M "You're coming across as patronising now tbh
You used the word "repeatedly" twice so that infers IMO more than once and quite a few. So whilst you didn't say we appeal everything you said "repeatedly" and I have pointed out correctly that we have only done it twice.
Also how do you know what our appeal against an appeal was based on? Where has it been confirmed that we attempted to exploit a loophole? How do you know if Saints felt that the grading was incorrect or not or that they felt Lees was not guilty? You are making assumptions.
On the Knowles GF appeal, Saints won the case over a loophole, that was apparent in the aftermath however that was to allow an important player to play in a Final. Again, Lees is not vital to us over the next two games but they obviously felt there was a case to appeal.'"
Mate, I'm not intending to be patronising but you keep posting that I have said things I haven't. How would you like me to respond exactly? Repeatedly means more than once. You say so yourself in the above post. I said it in that way as it's the 2nd time in less than a year that Saints have tried to get a player off on a technicality rather than because he's innocent of any offence. You ask how I know this: well, as I understand it, that's the only thing you can challenge an appeal on so the appeal is it's own proof. If that's not correct then I will, of course, withdraw my statement but I'm fairly sure I'm right. If, however, the club thought it wasn't a banning offence then I have to say they need to take their Saints blinkers off. That (and less) has been a ban all season.
Your justification for the Knowles appeal is exactly the point I'm making and, at the risk of seeming patronising again, I thought you were better than that. If he commited an offence then it shouldn't matter if his ban covers a final! Players have missed out on international honours, finals, play off games and all points in between because they transgressed in the games leading up to it. That's exactly as it should be! Why should an exception be made because it's a final? I'm staggered you even think that.
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| Quote: sergeant pepper "Maybe my choice of words wasn't the best, but the only thing that looks silly is the game.
You rightly, or wrongly beat the drum about the "good of the game" and then aren't happy with people calling a spade a spade. Do you think interviewing that guy in his garden boosted , or improved the perception of the game to either new fans or sponsors? There was probably a better way of me putting it, but it's like it went out of the way to belittle the town and sport.
Those are the issues facing RL, not Saints doing their utmost to keep a winning streak going. Wellens can be as hypocritical as he wants - must top coaches are (not saying he is one by the way) Wayne Bennett, Fergie, Mourinho, Pep all start little fires here or there to either motivate or distract. You think when Fergie moaned about fixtures post CL games he cared about the other teams players? It was all about getting an advantage for United.
ATEOTD, we're both big clubs and we should be right behind the m on this.'"
I agree with a lot of your points here. I'm a Saints fan first and foremost as you are with Wigan. Woolf was paid by Saints to win trophies and when he withdrew players from international games to increase our chances of winning trophies then that suited me. Yes the likes of Nicky Kiss on here will disagree vehemently and say what about the wider game but I pay good money to watch my team and naturally I want them to win everything.
I'd rather opposition fans hate Woolf but we win stuff than for everyone to say Peet seems like a good bloke because he allows all the Wigan players to play for their country.
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| Quote: Phuzzy "Mate, I'm not intending to be patronising but you keep posting that I have said things I haven't. How would you like me to respond exactly? Repeatedly means more than once. You say so yourself in the above post. I said it in that way as it's the 2nd time in less than a year that Saints have tried to get a player off on a technicality rather than because he's innocent of any offence. You ask how I know this
Now you've misunderstood me. I've not given my opinon on whether or not I felt it was the right or wrong thing to do. What I'm saying is that I understand why Saints gave it a shot given it was a Grand Final and Knowles is an important player. Regardless of how they won the appeal I get why they tried it.
Incidentally I can't recall the last time a player was suspended for a Final? I'm sure there will be examples but we had Matautia miss the 2021 CC Final. Not sure if this has happened since.
On a very very different scale and I don't want us to go off at a tangent here but as a Utd fan I am completely against Mason Greenwood returning to play for the club. However I understand that as a club they will want him to play because despite being a despicable human being he is an extremely good footballer and him playing gives the team a better chance of winning stuff. Not in the slightest trying to compare him to Knowles, just pointing out that what I think but what I understand are very different if that makes sense!
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| Quote: sergeant pepper "Maybe my choice of words wasn't the best, but the only thing that looks silly is the game.
You rightly, or wrongly beat the drum about the "good of the game" and then aren't happy with people calling a spade a spade. Do you think interviewing that guy in his garden boosted , or improved the perception of the game to either new fans or sponsors? There was probably a better way of me putting it, but it's like it went out of the way to belittle the town and sport.
Those are the issues facing RL, not Saints doing their utmost to keep a winning streak going. Wellens can be as hypocritical as he wants - must top coaches are (not saying he is one by the way) Wayne Bennett, Fergie, Mourinho, Pep all start little fires here or there to either motivate or distract. You think when Fergie moaned about fixtures post CL games he cared about the other teams players? It was all about getting an advantage for United.
ATEOTD, we're both big clubs and we should be right behind the m on this.'"
As I said, you make a lot of good points and call a spade a spade all you like but you don't know the bloke you're calling a scrubber from a council house and at that stage, the good points become less effective. I actually do know people who know that guy and by all accounts he's a thoroughly decent chap (if a little eccentric) and he loves rugby league, so he's ok by me. The game is portrayed as almost amateur at times, I agree with that and IMG need to start earning their position within the game and work on that perception. There will always be room for a romantic tale though and you can't just brush out the games roots in working class, Northern towns. It's a balancing act and one we need to work on. The players should be superstars but outside of Rugby league towns, nobody knows them from Adam.
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| Quote: Stu M "Now you've misunderstood me. I've not given my opinon on whether or not I felt it was the right or wrong thing to do. What I'm saying is that I understand why Saints gave it a shot given it was a Grand Final and Knowles is an important player. Regardless of how they won the appeal I get why they tried it.
Incidentally I can't recall the last time a player was suspended for a Final? I'm sure there will be examples but we had Matautia miss the 2021 CC Final. Not sure if this has happened since.
On a very very different scale and I don't want us to go off at a tangent here but as a Utd fan I am completely against Mason Greenwood returning to play for the club. However I understand that as a club they will want him to play because despite being a despicable human being he is an extremely good footballer and him playing gives the team a better chance of winning stuff. Not in the slightest trying to compare him to Knowles, just pointing out that what I think but what I understand are very different if that makes sense!'"
Is that not worse Stu? You don't believe they should have done it but you agree with the fact they did? I know you used the word "understand" rather than "agree" but the fact that you're offering it in mitigation suggests you have some sympathy with the decision. Don't you think that's hypocritical? Unless your opinion is that it was the right thing to do in the first place in which case I'm not sure you have any right to object to anything being said here.
However, I think the points being made have become somewhat blurred. If, as you admit above, Saints do push the boundaries to gain an advantage, whether you agree with it or not, why did you object when I said the same?
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65656_1708941604.jpg [size=95:2obtgspq]23 LEAGUE TITLES[/size:2obtgspq]
[size=95:2obtgspq]21 CHALLENGE CUPS[/size:2obtgspq]
[size=95:2obtgspq]5 WORLD TITLES[/size:2obtgspq]
[b:2obtgspq][color=#FF0000:2obtgspq][size=100:2obtgspq]SAYS IT ALL REALLY[/size:2obtgspq][/color:2obtgspq][/b:2obtgspq]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_65656.jpg |
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| Quote: Stu M "I agree with a lot of your points here. I'm a Saints fan first and foremost as you are with Wigan. Woolf was paid by Saints to win trophies and when he withdrew players from international games to increase our chances of winning trophies then that suited me. Yes the likes of Nicky Kiss on here will disagree vehemently and say what about the wider game but I pay good money to watch my team and naturally I want them to win everything.
I'd rather opposition fans hate Woolf but we win stuff than for everyone to say Peet seems like a good bloke because he allows all the Wigan players to play for their country.'"
Exactly.
Wigan 1st and if that's means following the same approach as Saints, then that's fine.
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| Quote: NickyKiss "As I said, you make a lot of good points and call a spade a spade all you like but you don't know the bloke you're calling a scrubber from a council house and at that stage, the good points become less effective (I actually do know people who know that guy and by all accounts he's a thoroughly decent chap and he loves rugby league, so he's ok by me). The game is portrayed as almost amateur at times, I agree with that and IMG need to start earning their position within the game and work on that perception. There will always be room for a romantic tale though and you can't just brush out the games roots in working class, Northern towns. It's a balancing act and one we need to work on. The players should be superstars but outside of Rugby league towns, nobody knows them from Adam.'"
He's a lifelong Leigh supporter and even has pieces of Hilton Park on display in his garden.
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| Quote: The Reaper "I don’t think that’s right lol, unless I’m getting mixed up with the other time it happened to Leeds but I only remember reading the Martin minutes. It explained why the appeal was deemed as frivolous.
They can’t just decide an appeal is frivolous based on “this was a fair ban” because A) that’s a completely subjective line that can’t be enforced in any kind of procedural manner and B) they can’t give a punishment for appealing any ban, as that would invite legal repercussions especially with fines involved
You have to have an appeals procedure in these things, and clubs/players have to be able to use them without fear of repercussions. As long as you are appealing an aspect of the charge (IE, guilt or grading) then you will never get deemed it to be a frivolous appeal. You can’t appeal just to try and get them to reduce the ban as that can’t be done if the grading and guilt are correct.'"
I wasn’t saying that there shouldn’t be an appeals process. What I was saying was that the version of frivolity you provided us with was an interpretation not the actual rule. Unless you can actually quote the rule we are all guessing when it should be applied.
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| Quote: The Reaper "To be fair, the MRP weren’t dishing out bans to anything that moved at the time either, so there was much less of this circus.'"
But we are subject to the same rules and we have not bleated about the process/system.
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| Quote: The Yellow Giraffe "The only part of your post I don't particularly agree with is the bit about Wellens being a hypocrite and in any way embarrassing. He called out Asiata for what is clearly a dangerous tackle technique. You're not honestly saying the Lees tackle on Greenwood was even comparable in terms of how dangerous it is are you?
If he had been asked about the Bell tackle on Bentley and he tried to defend/justify it then I agree he would be a massive hypocrite. As it happened, the question was surprisingly never put to him (genuinely can't believe no journo had the balls) and he therefore said nothing. He isn't going to voluntarily come out and start talking about his own player is he?
Like I said, I don't disagree with your post about our discipline in general earlier in the year and why have we received the most bans. We've had some idiotic moments from Knowles, Matautia, Sironen and Bell this season and I have very little sympathy with most of the charges and bans. The Lees one this weekend just gone I have some sympathy with as it was a genuine attempt at what most of us would class as a good hit. Under the current rules, if they see evidence of head contact I can see why he was banned and said a couple of days ago I have no issue with that.
But to suggest Wellens is a hypocrite for calling out a potentially career/season-ending technique and then appealing a ban for a marginal/debatable high tackle makes no sense to me. The two things couldn't be more different.'"
I like Wellens but his public comments about Asiata are uncalled for. If he wishes to raise Asiata’s tackling technique as an issue he should have taken it through the appropriate channels. That part of the game should not be played out in the media. From what I can gather, Asiata’s tackling technique is not breaking the rules of the game (although I have to say I don’t like it) and consequently Wellens should be asking the RFL to look at the rules not pillorying the Leigh player.
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| Further to the above from Saint's own press release:
The Club’s then lodged an appeal on Wednesday night which was based on the fact that we believe the Operational Rules Tribunal made an error of law in its decision or failed to act fairly in a procedural sense.
So definitely a technicality.
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| Quote: Phuzzy "Further to the above from Saint's own press release
I've quoted exactly the same earlier. See my comments in relation to it.
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| Going round in circles now, let's just all agree this Saints team is bunch of head hunting grubs who deserve every ban they get
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