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Quote: NickyKiss "Just had a flick through of a topic about Wigan on Red Vee and the line now seems to be that we think they’re rubbish and that Good Friday will be easy for us!

Talk about missing the point!! They don’t seem to understand that by stating how they’re comfortably the best of a bad bunch, it’s ourselves we’re criticising, along with the other 10 superleague clubs. It’ll take one hell of a shock not to get beaten on Good Friday but you never know.

I’m not sure I’ve seen a club or fan base as desperate for adulation before. Maybe it stems from the old entertainers tag they were given but it’s now just methodical and a bit robotic (but clearly very effective). I suppose it’s driving them on via this ‘us against the game’ attitude they’re developing, so fair play.'"


Yep, they just can't grasp it, no matter how many times it's painfully admitted on here they're the best team in the league even the slightest dig at them brings them out in a fit of the vapours.
Smashing teams up the middle and then putting on "the move" is what we were constantly criticised for, "boring, robotic" take your pick. When it's done well it's almost impossible to stop and they're doing it better than anyone.
Only way we're going to win on GF is if we can go round them, we really need French to have a couple of games under is belt before then, a centre/wing combo of K P-P/Zak fills me with dread, especially if Grace is back for them in time for the game.

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And the game is still weeks away - you gotta love the derby! icon_smile.gif

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Quote: jaws1 "Winning 4 in a row will wipe the slate clean a bit as you lost five in a row.'"


Who is you? I’m a Wigan fan?

I’m saying if Saints win 4 in a row they still won’t be the greatest team in Super League history…

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Quote: MadDogg "Their salary cap is a bit top heavy no doubt. Great 1-17 but outside of that they have Hurrell and maybe Amor but not too much else.'"


Interesting. I'd say Saints have c22 relatively experienced/SL quality players (Welsby, Makinson, Hopoate, Percival, Grace, Lomax, Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Lees, Matautia, Bachelor, Knowles, Lussick, LMS, Sironen, Paasi as first XVII plus Hurrell, Amor, Bell, Wingfield, Simm

For Wigan its' probably about the same: French, Bibby, Hardaker, Pearce-Paul, Marshall, Field, Cust, Ellis, Powell, Mago, Farrell, Bateman, Smithies, Leuluai, Singleton, Partington, Havard as first XVII plus Byrne, Shorrocks, Thornley, Isa, Smith

So to me both squads have about 22 then kids/projects and Wigan's quaity outside the first XIII is a fair bit weaker (comparing benches of Lussick/LMS/Sironen/Paasi to Singleton/Havard/Partington/Leuluai.

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Quote: FearTheVee "Interesting. I'd say Saints have c22 relatively experienced/SL quality players (Welsby, Makinson, Hopoate, Percival, Grace, Lomax, Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Lees, Matautia, Bachelor, Knowles, Lussick, LMS, Sironen, Paasi as first XVII plus Hurrell, Amor, Bell, Wingfield, Simm

For Wigan its' probably about the same

I don’t disagree with much of that but that bench isn’t, hasn’t been and won’t be our bench with a full team out. Without going over old ground, it’s easy for Saints to choose a first choice team and a first choice bench because you get to put it out there pretty often and other sides don’t.

If we had everyone available on Good Friday (which we won’t with Ellis already banned) I’d expect the bench to be along the lines of Mago, Havard, Smithies and French. There’s clearly more quality in the Saints 17 but I’m looking forward to us (hopefully) being able to field a bench like that. I’m not going to compare it to the Saints bench because it contains totally different styles of players but I’m more than happy with ours. Unfortunately as with most games against you guys recently, our starting front row will cripple us.

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Quote: NickyKiss "I don’t disagree with much of that but that bench isn’t, hasn’t been and won’t be our bench with a full team out. Without going over old ground, it’s easy for Saints to choose a first choice team and a first choice bench because you get to put it out there pretty often and other sides don’t.

If we had everyone available on Good Friday (which we won’t with Ellis already banned) I’d expect the bench to be along the lines of Mago, Havard, Smithies and French. There’s clearly more quality in the Saints 17 but I’m looking forward to us (hopefully) being able to field a bench like that. I’m not going to compare it to the Saints bench because it contains totally different styles of players but I’m more than happy with ours. Unfortunately as with most games against you guys recently, our starting front row will cripple us.'"

I also don't think FTV's are quite right anyway. Thornley, Isa and definitely Byrne are all in contention for first 17 with everyone fit and available. Only possibly Hurrell from Saints could be said to be the same. That alone gives us more competition for places and genuine depth.

In addition he's missed Hallsall in the 'extras' who has as much experience as some mentioned in the Saints lot and has, in fact, already featured this season. Add to that Miski who has played international rugby and has also already featured this season and Hanley who has several first team appearances under his belt.

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Quote: Phuzzy "I also don't think FTV's are quite right anyway. Thornley, Isa and definitely Byrne are all in contention for first 17 with everyone fit and available. Only possibly Hurrell from Saints could be said to be the same. That alone gives us more competition for places and genuine depth.

In addition he's missed Hallsall in the 'extras' who has as much experience as some mentioned in the Saints lot and has, in fact, already featured this season. Add to that Miski who has played international rugby and has also already featured this season and Hanley who has several first team appearances under his belt.'"


True enough. I think we benefit from the versatility of our squad as well. So yeah, the quality in both first choice 17’s may not be comparable like for like but I think we can shuffle around our players and cover injuries better if we need to. That’s something that hasn’t been tested at Saints massively but one injury in the halves for them starts to cause real trouble, as it’s move Welsby and play a non specialist at fullback or play somebody out of position in the halves.

If we get an injury at fullback we can put in French, Hardaker or Hanley. An injury in the halves will mean we need to put Harry Smith in or move Field but then put French at fullback. An injury at hooker and we can put Cust or Leuluai in there or give a cracking young player (with plenty of Championship experience at the back of him) in Brad O’Neill a shot. We’ve loads of options in the outside backs and the back row as well.

Nobody is daft enough to suggest our 17 is on a par currently but it’s a long season and if both sides got tested with absences in certain positions, I think that’s an area we can potentially benefit from.

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Quote: NickyKiss "True enough. I think we benefit from the versatility of our squad as well. So yeah, the quality in both first choice 17’s may not be comparable like for like but I think we can shuffle around our players and cover injuries better if we need to. That’s something that hasn’t been tested at Saints massively but one injury in the halves for them starts to cause real trouble, as it’s move Welsby and play a non specialist at fullback or play somebody out of position in the halves.

If we get an injury at fullback we can put in French, Hardaker or Hanley. An injury in the halves will mean we need to put Harry Smith in or move Field but then put French at fullback. An injury at hooker and we can put Cust or Leuluai in there or give a cracking young player (with plenty of Championship experience at the back of him) in Brad O’Neill a shot. We’ve loads of options in the outside backs and the back row as well.

Nobody is daft enough to suggest our 17 is on a par currently but it’s a long season and if both sides got tested with absences in certain positions, I think that’s an area we can potentially benefit from.'"

I'm sure FTV would disagree but I've felt for a while that Saints are more vulnerable to losing a few key players than we are. Their first choice may be stronger but losing players often considerably weakens them. We can lose players with little difference in quality across more positions. Saints lose Walmsley, Lomax, Makinson etc al and the replacements coming in are weaker. Ours, not so much.

Mind you, for any of that to matter Saints would have to face the type of injury toll that other teams have had to and, recently at least, that hasn't happened.

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Quote: NickyKiss " play a non specialist at fullback .'"


Like Hopoate? Who has played 74 games at full back in the NRL and 11 times for Tonga including during wins against Great Britain and Australia?

You can't list Field as a solid half back option for Wigan (having played there 10 times in his career) and Cust as an option at 9 (having NEVER started there in his career but has made 12 bench appearances so at most has played hooker 12 times) and then refer to Hopoate as a a "non specialist" full back, having racked up nearly 100 NRL and international appearances.

If you're going to compare and contrast then come on mate think about what you're saying.

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Quote: Phuzzy "I'm sure FTV would disagree but I've felt for a while that Saints are more vulnerable to losing a few key players than we are. Their first choice may be stronger but losing players often considerably weakens them. We can lose players with little difference in quality across more positions. Saints lose Walmsley, Lomax, Makinson etc al and the replacements coming in are weaker. Ours, not so much.

Mind you, for any of that to matter Saints would have to face the type of injury toll that other teams have had to and, recently at least, that hasn't happened.'"


And they can rightfully point to the fact that the drop off in quality wouldn’t be as great for us because the quality isn’t as high in the first place (in many cases) but the point still stands for me. We could manage 6 or 7 injuries pretty comfortably, without much of a drop off but they could really feel it.

As an example let’s say we take out the teams first choice 1,2,3,6,8,11 and a bench prop and that leaves us at-

French
Miski, Hardaker, Thornley, Marshall
Smith Leuluai
Havard Powell Ellis
Isa Farrell Smithies


Subs-Mago, Partington, Shorrocks, O’Neill

Saints

Hopoate
Sims Davies Percival Grace
Sironen Dodds
Paasi Roby Lees
Knowles Batchelor LMS

subs
Amor, Bell, Norman, Lussick

Our side would feel the absences to a degree but the Saints side is chalk and cheese for me and you’d really fancy getting at it.

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Quote: The Yellow Giraffe "Like Hopoate? Who has played 74 games at full back in the NRL and 11 times for Tonga including during wins against Great Britain and Australia?

You can't list Field as a solid half back option for Wigan (having played there 10 times in his career) and Cust as an option at 9 (having NEVER started there in his career but has made 12 bench appearances so at most has played hooker 12 times) and then refer to Hopoate as a a "non specialist" full back, having racked up nearly 100 NRL and international appearances.

If you're going to compare and contrast then come on mate think about what you're saying.'"


What is Hopoate’s position?

He’s a centre, who has played plenty of fullback but he’s not a specialist fullback.

Put it this way on what I’ve seen of him, I’d love to see him at fullback ASAP.

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Quote: NickyKiss "What is Hopoate’s position?

He’s a centre, who has played plenty of fullback but he’s not a specialist fullback.

Put it this way on what I’ve seen of him, I’d love to see him at fullback ASAP.'"


He's played 97 career appearances at centre, 85 at full back. Not much in it at all.

Either way, you see my point don't you? He's far more of a full back than Field is a half back or Cust a hooker. So you can't refer to moving to Hopoate to 1 as "causing real trouble" yet say Field to halves or Cust to hooker is perfectly fine. Think about it.

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Quote: The Yellow Giraffe "He's played 97 career appearances at centre, 85 at full back. Not much in it at all.

Either way, you see my point don't you? He's far more of a full back than Field is a half back or Cust a hooker. So you can't refer to moving to Hopoate to 1 as "causing real trouble" yet say Field to halves or Cust to hooker is perfectly fine. Think about it.'"


Firstly-the old ‘think about it’ lines are below you mate, no need to try and be condescending. Let’s just talk rugby.

I’ve thought about it plenty by the way. You’ve seen how Field is playing at fullback haven’t you?! You saw how French played at fullback in 2020 as well I guess? Both have been superb and there’s no drop off either way. We move Field to six and Cust to hooker and you know what? I actually think we’d be a better team with 1-French, 6-Field and 9-Cust than we are with Field, Cust and Powell, so let alone a drop off, I think we could be better. Can you say the same if you have to put Hopoate at fullback in place of Welsby?! That’s the point I’m making.

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Quote: NickyKiss "Firstly-the old ‘think about it’ lines are below you mate, no need to try and be condescending. Let’s just talk rugby.

I’ve thought about it plenty by the way. You’ve seen how Field is playing at fullback haven’t you?! You saw how French played at fullback in 2020 as well I guess? Both have been superb and there’s no drop off either way. We move Field to six and Cust to hooker and you know what? I actually think we’d be a better team with 1-French, 6-Field and 9-Cust than we are with Field, Cust and Powell, so let alone a drop off, I think we could be better. Can you say the same if you have to put Hopoate at fullback in place of Welsby?! That’s the point I’m making.'"


Not being condescending at all mater, not my intention in the slightest. Just trying to make you see it's a bit far fetched what you're saying. You can't disregard a bloke with nearly 100 full back appearances at the very highest level but champion a player playing a position they have never started in, and not expect it to be questioned. You're just making an assumption he would be a good 9 or that Field would be a good half because it suits your argument. But then go on to say Hopoate playing in a position where he is tried and tested is "causing trouble." You can't skew the facts to win an argument. That was and is my point.

There's so many ifs and buts and maybes in this thread it's ridiculous. What if Saints lose 5 to injury. What if they lose 6. What if Wigan lose 5 but it's specifically positions X,Y, Z.....? It's one of the most utterly bizarre and purely hypothetical debates I have ever heard.

You're Wigan rugby, the self-proclaimed biggest club in the world, and you're consoling yourself with the fact that IF both clubs lost the same amount of players and it was the specific positions you mentioned, then you could have a right good go at us. Does that not concern you? Some Wigan fans have now created this notion that Saints don't get injuries and that we have poor depth to make you feel better about our recent dominance. It's complete and utter desperation.

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Quote: The Yellow Giraffe "Not being condescending at all mater, not my intention in the slightest. Just trying to make you see it's a bit far fetched what you're saying. You can't disregard a bloke with nearly 100 full back appearances at the very highest level but champion a player playing a position they have never started in, and not expect it to be questioned. You're just making an assumption he would be a good 9 or that Field would be a good half because it suits your argument. But then go on to say Hopoate playing in a position where he is tried and tested is "causing trouble." You can't skew the facts to win an argument. That was and is my point.

There's so many ifs and buts and maybes in this thread it's ridiculous. What if Saints lose 5 to injury. What if they lose 6. What if Wigan lose 5 but it's specifically positions X,Y, Z.....? It's one of the most utterly bizarre and purely hypothetical debates I have ever heard.

You're Wigan rugby, the self-proclaimed biggest club in the world, and you're consoling yourself with the fact that IF both clubs lost the same amount of players and it was the specific positions you mentioned, then you could have a right good go at us. Does that not concern you? Some Wigan fans have now created this notion that Saints don't get injuries and that we have poor depth to make you feel better about our recent dominance. It's complete and utter desperation.'"


You’ve not answered the question. Will you be a better side with Hopoate at fullback, rather than Welsby? My memory of Hopoate as a fullback is as a pretty average one and he’s lost pace since those days. Cade Cust has played as much at hooker as he has in the halves in his first team career at Manly and Field has played more halfback. So I can’t say Field is a specialist fullback but I also can’t say we may be better with him at 6?! Makes sense icon_lol.gif They’re both far younger players, with less experience, so everything is more open with them than a lad whose legs are going moving back to fullback.

As for the whole debate, there’s no worry on my part, no straw clutching and you Saints fans can hate people pointing out your luck with a lack of an injury crisis all you like but it’s a fact that you’ve not had 5,6,7+ players missing at once (unless you’ve rested them) in this past few years. So a debate is here for you to take part in if you wish and it’s all about the depth of the squads and the versatility of the squads. If you don’t want to do that fair enough but you jumped in, so I presumed you did.

What is it exactly that you Saints fans will be happy with? Everyone saying you have the best 17, the best depth and are achieving what you’re achieving in a brilliant league, with an amazing standard? You’re just not going to get that unfortunately.

You’ll get the truth from me-

You’re easily the best side in the league, with the best 17 and decent depth, but that depth could be tested under certain circumstances and we could benefit from that if it ever comes to that. You’re winning your trophies in a league that’s overall standard is at an all time low (well in my lifetime anyway) IMO but that criticises the over 11 teams, not Saints. It’s up to all the other sides to catch you guys.

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Brisbane
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
20:00
Hull FC
v
Leigh
 Fri 7th Mar 2025
     National Rugby League 2024-R1
07:00
Wests
v
Newcastle
09:00
Dolphins
v
Souths
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
20:00
Castleford
v
Salford
20:00
St.Helens
v
Hull KR
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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