we dont have a joel tomkins or a ryan hoffman now though. and they were quality too.

Agreed - but there's no way in current circumstances that the likes of Hoffman will grace SL again, whereas I'd argue that Hughes and Lloyd are at least as good as J Tomkins at a comparable stage of their development.

As much as your first point is correct it matters little in the comparison stakes because we did have Hoffman and now we don't! We did have Joel Tomkins and now we don't and we do have Gaz Hock but won't for long and no replacement of anywhere near the same quality will be available now. A few months back Willie Manu and Gareth Ellis where available but now they're not and we'll have to go with what we've got.

As for your second point it's again correct but matter even less because Joel was 23-24 with 4 or 5 seasons rugby at the back of him when he replaced Hock in 2010. Those 2 you mention are good youngsters but they're no Hock, no Hoffman and no Joel Tomkins of 2010 yet and won't be for a good few seasons.

We need quality players in the team now not in 5 years.

It was, about two weeks ago.

'"

The message this sends to Lloyd etc and the other more established youngsters is that they are at Wigan to develop and then sign for an NRL club once there development is deemed suitable for the NRL.

Would be interesting to see if any of the posters up in arms are the same posters who objected to him being offered a new contract after his ban for drugs was served.

Has anyone thought this could be Gaz way or his Agents at getting Gaz an improved deal. He was brought back on a modest contract that was to increase slightly each year over the 5 years. He had a good year and clearly should be one of our topp 5 earners.

At 29 this has all the classic signs of getting an improved contract

Before getting too despondent I suggest that you wait until you see Hock's replacement

i think so too, is he still on the same contract he signed after he came back from the drugs ban? maybe this is hes way to get an improvement on that deal. most people who know hock say hes a home cookie who will probably never move out of wigan.

but if not i hope we make moves for mose maose (not sure on spelling) but the 2nd row from the roosters hes very big and solid as a rock and last time i heard he was available, so collect the fee from gaz and pocket it and not lose to much qaulity.

Thank God for someone with the correct perspective on where we are (or will be) if Hock goes as well.

I think this has just tipped a few sensible posters over the edge because for the last couple of years, if they're like me they've been biting their lip in the hope that we can just keep on coping with the player drain that's happening. I think this one could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of our hopes for the next few years. When you have a back like Sam Tomkins and a forward like Gareth Hock you can paper over some cracks and cracks have certainly been forming for a while now but it now looks like we'll lose both within the next 12 months and if that's the case i'm not sure if we have any chance of recovery in the short term. We might be able to build a side again in 5,6,7 plus years but even at it's current poor level we'll be just plodding along.

I know all the exits i'm about to list couldn't be helped but compare the in's to the out's from the end of 2010 onwards and it's scary reading IMO-

Outs
Martin Gleeson
Amos Roberts
George Carmont
Paul Deacon
Thomas Leuluai
Brett Finch
Feka Paleaaesina
Stuart Fielden
Andy Coley
Jeff Lima
Mark Riddell
Joel Tomkins
Ryan Hoffman
Gareth Hock??

Ins
Anthony Gelling
Iain Thornley
Blake Green
Matty Smith
Gil Dudson
Hame Lauaki
Ben Flower
Scott Taylor


Obviously Lima, Finch and Hoffman have come and then gone and we may have got those cheaper then expected but the quality coming in simply isn't at the level of that going through the door. I know the quality of player simply isn't available from the NRL anymore but it doesn't make the situation any less depressing. I'm not getting at Ian Lenagan because he's been fantastic for the club and we'd be in a far worse position without him but he's fighting a losing battle at the moment. The players who've come in have potential but it's potential that would stand a far better chance of being fulfilled with quality players around them.

I'd love for him to come out tomorrow and say Hock, Tomkins, Mossop, Hansen etc have signed new 5 year deals but it's not going to happen and I expect the 4 of them to leave in this and the next off season.

if he cared one iota about the fans he would be explaining why we have lost half a team this year.
and would be telling us that tomkins, charnley, and richards are going nowhere,
as someone else said the silence is deafening.

I was easy either way. Had the club sacked him I would not have been as up in arms as some would have been and would have backed the club. As they decided otherwise and did what they did I, fair enough was my view.

I'd also be interested if any who were adamant he should have been given the second chance have now decided he's past it at 29 and its time we cashed in or just view this a good business! Hero to zero overnight?