You don't think that's Wanes fault though do you?

I can't see that at all. Ian Lenagan knows Wane is a man who trusts youth but he's also a man who loves winning. He's lost players he didn't want to lose, he's had to give debuts to kids earlier then in sure he'd have liked to.

He's done incredibly well in the circumstances to keep us where we are. Not many clubs could lose approx 20 players in 4 or 5 years and keep finishing up near the top of the league.

I think he needs to get a bit of a grip at the moment Wane but overall he's done a fantastic job.

I think he's partly to blame for it. He's certainly made the job harder than it needs to be by moving away from what was a successful strategy that was still its relevant infancy. It's not like he came in off the back of a 6/7 year period of one stone and needed to freshen things up.

He's also stirred things up with his comments and, Imo, that's added extra dimensions to games that simply didn't need to be there.

I also think IL has a part to play in the breakup of a potential dynasty. We've seen Watkins and Hall secured at Leeds and we've also seen some big enough names come over in positions we've needed i.e Burns, Walsh, Carney, Locke, Simms etc go to others without a whimper from us. He doesn't seem to secure those big deals when we desperately need them I'm not talking purely financial matters here I'm talking about coercion that's needed at that level.

I think if Ian Lenagan had said to Wane 'we're signing a replacement for Blake Green' he'd have been happy with that.

I think Wane is happy to go down the juniors route because it's his passion to some extent but also because it's what he's being given to work with and ultimately he doesn't get a great deal of choice. Kris Rads admitted as much as the fans forum that him and Lenagan pick the players to sign and give Wane the names to get his opinion. If they'd have gone to him and said here's Travis Burns or here's Todd Carney I think he'd have been delighted.

Looking forward to next year Manfredi will take over from Burgess and Hampshire will possibly take over from Bowen and they'll run with a thinner squad behind them IMO. They'll probably sign a back from a relegated side to add cover. Do I think that's Wanes preferences? Probably not.

Well that's one way of rewriting history.

The two barren seasons you mention in the first we won the LLS and the second lost the GF with 12 men.

'Flooding the side with youngsters' may not be the way forward but Wane had no option. He coaches what he's given. Let's not forget Madge had Tommy Leuluai, Paul Deacon, Stuart Fielden, Martin Gleeson, Pat Richards, George Carmont, Sean O'Loughlin. I could go on. But that's a fair degree of ability and experience that has never been replaced.

Add to that the genius of Sam Tomkins. It could be argued that Brian Noble underperformed with this squad rather than Madge overperforming, good though Madge was/is.

How have Wigan covered the loss of Sam? Not with a 'youngster' but with the 'marquee signing' Bowen. What a laugh. I very much doubt that Madge would be able to work any miracles with the likes of Bowen and others who SW is forced through circumstance to work with.

Your criticism of Wane is so far from being reasonable it's untrue. Whilst he's far from perfect IMHO he's done better than anyone could have expected given the number of great players Wigan have lost in the last three years.

What ever your view on Madge you cannot help but admire his ruthless ambition for Souths to be the best.

1 NRL GF WIN, NRL 9s WIN, WCC WIN, Not bad really.

The Souths defence was unreal and never give Saints a chance

This.

Plus everything Saints threw at Souths, they had an answer for it... No Super League side could have lived with Souths last night.

Ha ha how am I'm not putting a reasonable argument forward?

It's a undeniable fact that we didn't win anything last season. In the history books it will say Wigan won nothing in 2013. If you want to talk about what happened in the GF then go ahead but your points are all based on ifs and could have beens. Your right about the LLS but do you not find it strange it's not included in the clubs honours overview - rlhttp://www.wiganwarriors.com/WContent.aspx?id

It's another FACT that Madge took what was a 6th place side to the title in 12 months. If you think Noble under achieved then that's fine but it's all subjective and open to scrutiny My two points are the only undeniable facts.

Like I said IL has a role to play in this as well. He doesn't seem able to talk players around to a situation that really benefits the club. We should have made Richards and Green offers they really couldn't refuse. How do Leeds retain highly rated players but we can't?

Happy for Wane to prove me wrong and if he does I'd happily state so. It's just so far we've regressed from the Madge era.

Madge is probably the best coach in the NRL so However good Wane is he is going to struggle a little in comparison.

He also had and has now a far better pool of players at his disposal.

Some people seem to forget that we also actually lost games under Madge, and some were pretty poor performances- and we blew winning the SL in his last year so not all was rosy.

Wane has done a pretty good job IMO, i can't see who I would want as an alternative - which is probably a fairer way of looking at things rather than some nostalgia trip. Some people probably ache to have Monie or Lowe back.

The one downside for me is still the lack of real size up front - something talked about last year but not really addressed. The return of Flower and Mossop don't really meet that either.

Don't start using facts!

You might add - Danny Buderus went back to resume his career in the NRL. Lee Smith went to Union...

I really wished we had been playing Souths in front of a full house with the return of Madge as an extra ingredient............until I watched last nights game

Really? Do you consider Kyle Amor big enough? Mossop is almost identical in both height and weight and Flower is actually heavier at 17 stone! In addition Tony Clubb is the same height and only a few pounds lighter. In fact, of our starting props only Tautai is noticeably lighter (and still the same height) but I really doubt anyone would suggest he lacks impact! If we were running with 3 Kyle Amors and Tautai would you be suggesting we lacked size? Well that's pretty much where we are when we have our 1st choice props available.

I think wanes game plan makes our forwards appear weaker than they are because irrespective of field position we try and go around teams instead of earning the right to spread the ball by doing the hard yards in the middle and winning the ruck. i do think where short a couple of really big powerful units tho

And i was led to believe that this Stains pack was invincible by some Stains "fans"....

Souths were as ruthless and clinical as you would expect from a team coached by Madge..