Where were we when Wire snapped up Roberts?

Under the illusion that Powell would be good enough!!

And the sad thing is that the standards over here have become so poor that Roberts looked like a world class player when all he did was what you would expect any average half back to do.

The Roberts who's had one good game all season and has been slated all year by those who watch him regularly? As a marquee signing he's been on a par with Williams so far.

The thing that’s getting me at the minute is how we continually bang on about our “world class” youth production line, but yet name a truly world class player it’s produced recently?

I look at Saints with envy to be totally honest. The likes of Makinson, Richardson, Percival, Grace and Thompson all brought through their ranks and looking for all money like some of them may well become world class.

Meanwhile we’ve brought through Burgess, Gildart, Williams, Powell, Davies, Sutton and Marshall who, don’t get me wrong on their day are good but they’re nowhere near the standard of Saints’ academy graduates IMHO.

Apols for going OT slightly and regarding the OP I’m a suckler for big aggressive take no sh*t forwards but I completely agree that the modern prop has to be more than a bully boy. A hybrid would be nice but they’re few and far between these days.

What does Tony clubb weigh in at these days? He looks a big bugger but i found it surprising as a former centre he ended up as a prop

Hold on a second. Makinson is a good player but he wasn't as good as Burgess when he was in form, hence why Budgie was generally favoured for the England side. We produced Manfredi who was the best English winger until getting cruelly injured. And Davies isn't far behind Makinson even though he's only been professional for a couple of years. Grace is no better than Marshall - flashy, exciting, occasionally a bit of a liability. Davies is definitely better than Grace.
Richardson is having a cracking breakthrough year but he looks no better than Williams did at the same age. His progression in the next few years will be telling.
Percival is a cracking talent, best young English centre but the second best is probably Gildart and there's not a huge difference between them when they're both on form. Gildart is playing better now his future has been sorted.
And I'd say Thompson isn't massively better than Sutton but simply plays in a side that uses their props a lot more effectively. Sutton seems to have a little bit more about him in terms of handling ability (although I haven't seen as much of Thompson so could be wrong).

I really can't understand the negativity you have towards our academy products given the ones you mention either aren't better or are only slightly better.

Ever heard of Ruben Wiki?

Saved me a load of typing, thanks. My thoughts exactly.

Cherry and white specs on hits a new high. Manfredi the best English winger? Over Hall? Makinson is clearly head and shoulders over Davies, however given time he could be similar (if he has regular ball and a good centre). Marshall? Please don't get me started. Another error filled game, highlight was Charnley looking at him keeping him at arms length as he desperately was trying to do something.

That's funny because just a fortnight ago Marshall rinsed Charnley for 80 minutes.

Could you post which markers you're using to support your view that Makinson is "head and shoulders" above Davies? Last time I looked Davies was leading Makinson on most stats although if that has significantly changed to a point where Makinson's are now significantly superior then I'm happy to accept your view.

Deluded.

oh damn it's Phuzzy...

Manfredi was the best English winger before his injury, hence why he made it into the Dream Team based on half a season. Sure he might not have cut it for England (because there's no way he'd have been overlooked for selection on that form) but he was still incredible in Super League, and better than Makinson. And I don't agree about Makinson being head and shoulders above Davies either. Makinson is dependable, hard working, safe defensively and an outstanding finisher. Davies is dependable, works even harder, maybe not quite as safe defensively (Makinson is exceptional) but still a strong defender, and is a good finisher (not quite Makinson's standard). Makinson isn't 'head and shoulders' above him at all. He's better, just not by a huge amount.
And Marshall, well he's effectively our 4th choice winger and has received just as much praise as Grace and arguably had a bigger impact for us than Grace has for Saints. Not saying Marshall is great, but you really think Grace is that much better? They're very similar.