On the face of it you can Rogues. I think I would have substituted Davico FOR Cross. Cross did a very good job for us when forwards were given a proper role under MADGE. One only has to look at Mossop's form under Madge compared to WANE. Lateral excessive passing in your own half is a nightmare for hard running forwards.

There are more examples of ageing Kiwi forwards being successful in British RL than ageing Welsh RU Forward Converts. UNTIL either proves it one way or another Wire have on paper been far shrewder. I think most RL fans would argue that Wire have got the better signing.

Better not ponder how any new signings for any club may go eh?

It's a forum and to post suggesting a proven RL forward may prove better than an ex-RU one given their ages is not exactly controversial is it?

What about their respective value "pound for pound"?
No-one knows I assume (unless someone has insider knowledge) how much it's costing their respective clubs.

A 9/10 player who takes up a large chunk of the salary cap has to prove his worth week in week out as their wont be much left for the others.
If it comes off fantastic, if a lot of time is spent in the stands or his form dips then maybe not so.

If an unproven player comes in and is costing next to nothing whilst the club still have 4 other props doing the business to me it's a low risk gamble and if said player gets up to 7/8 out of 10 performances, plays a squad role and pleasantly surprises people and all the while large chunks of the salary cap are being spent elsewhere then fantastic.

We'll have to wait and see I suppose but I'm not going to make my mind up and then stick to that view just to prove I'm right. As long as we don't take lots of gambles and have others lined up for those spots in case it backfires I'm ok with it.
I'm prepared to say "time will tell".

...what?
jeff lima was significantly better in 2012 than 2011. andy coley was significantly worse in 2011 than 2010. prescott was awesome the first half of last year. crosby and flower have really impressed this season. i dont know how you can say that mossops decline is wanes fault, and that wane is using props incorrectly which is affecting development. players go in and out of form.

Wigan's go forward is worse under Wane than it was under Madge. By his own admission Wane wanted to play differently to the way Madge had the team playing. The Wane way reminds of Wire 3/4 years ago when they would destroy rubbish in meaningless matches and look amazing BUT come to big games particularly as the nights closed in and wet, cold weather took hold they bombed. Under Madge the team played finals football in every game. Finals football is very different from the silly season which is why Leeds do well come finals time.

We had a formula that won major competitions. The squad was getting stronger and yet our coach has been critical of the Madge way, openly/publically admitted he is not a good assistant coach and rather than adhere to the continuity ticket many presumed was the reason for him being promoted Wane openly want to create a new way. A way that thus far breaks down when it comes to the biggest games. We have gone from being a club that won either the GF or CC each season to one that hails the hubcap as a sign of progress. Forget what you, I or any fan thinks they know; Do you not find it odd that seasoned pros like Paul Deacon say they learned more in a season under Madge than their whole career in successful teams / highly regarded coaches elsewhere. The Madge philosophy is seeing Souths make progress unheralded since the early 70's. It just strikes me the man best placed to learn from Madge never did for whatever reason(s) and our club went from one winning major competitions with a fantastic long term culture seemingly ready to continue winning at least one major competition every season (N.B The hubcap is not a major competition)

Too many passes particularly in your own half and far too many 2nd man plays in your own half, lateral/lateral/lateral has seen Wigan go from a team that destroyed teams clinically in the first 20 minutes and then strangle those teams for the duration to one that is far more hit and miss, has failed to score in the first 40 minutes for 2 consecutive games and rarely enjoys control of matches for the duration. When a team is physically dominant particularly in the tackle / POTB IMO you see less injuries suffered by your own players and far more by opposing players. We are the Wire of old who could be sublime or stupidly silly.

I do hope we get one of our blowing hot days when it matters but I know I had far more faith in the Madge Way than the Wane Way. We should be enjoying a fantastic period of dominance in a SL competition that is getting poorer and poorer season after season.

What evidence do you have re Lima and Coley?

Here's a crazy theory, maybe Madge is a better coach than Wane. Maybe he's better than most coaches in the entire sport.

Futhermore I find it absolutely disgraceful that Wane has wanted to coach the team his way, rather than routinely following Madge's methods by the book. He should be ashamed of finishing top of the league in his only year in charge. No, really.

Ever considered that when something is going fantastic and is proven to work that it does not need tampering with. I believe thinking he could do it better and a desire to change what was proven to work led to the downfall of John Dorahay and many, many fans perceive him very negatively despite winning far more and better competitions in his first season as the Wigan coach. Based upon your view Orrell Lad you must think the way John Dorahay was treated by our club was a disgrace and that the likes of Shaun Edwards and Dean Bell were wrong to stand up and stop a new coach wanting to do things his way rather than in your words routinely follow what was already successful. What say you Orrell Lad?

I think it is human nature that people will always look for ways to improve how their predecessor operated. It's not always a guarantee for success, but then you're extremely naive if you think ANY coach in world RL would replicate their predecessor's methods. But you've clearly got a negative agenda as far as Wane is concerned, so go for it.

Dorahy!

It's clear there was a major conflict of opinion between him and the team at the time. I'll get back to you when the entire current Wigan squad turn their back on Wane and his coaching methods.

Would anyone lie to post the ridiculous comments SW made about ripping Madges structures etc. when he took over?
Just so we can analyse what he actually said rather than what some people say he said.

Here's a Wane quote, definitely the words of a man who learns nothing from his peers...

“I wanted to make sure I got every ounce of wisdom out of him. I had no idea if we’d meet again so I recorded everything he said and still listen to it regularly.

“Speaking to him has absolutely had an effect on my coaching career and the way I approach my job. He’s an incredible man.”

Correct. People's criticism of SW is based on losing two semis against Leeds SL Champions of 5 out of the last 7 years. SW took over a team from Madge that lost two play off games against Saints. Why would he not think he could - indeed SHOULD - try at least to improve on that? Madge was able to buy three high profile players from Storm a luxury not afforded to SW who has lost Joel, Finch, Tommy, Hoffman, Deacon, Coley, Lima, Riddell, George. Tell me a coach who has had to deal with losing that level of talent often without adequate or even ANY replacement. So he had to develop youngsters, that lets not forget HE brought through!

Secretly a lot of the SW bashers will be pleased if Wigan win nothing this year as they will be vindicated. Fans throughout the game would not believe the sort of criticism that SW receives from his own; Criticised for playing the most exciting brand of rugby in the league, criticised for trying to win every game, criticised for speaking his mind to the press instead of just saying nothing, criticised for training too hard despite being the fittest team in the league, criticised for getting rid of a player who took a two year ban then wanted out, criticised for paying too much attention to Saints games, criticised for winning games too easily, criticed for NOT winning games too easily!!! The list goes on and on.

God help us if we were in Saints position, the same team who beat Madge in his last game. How have they done over the last two years?

Stop and smell the roses guys, if you haven't enjoyed the quality of Wigan's play over the last two years I feel genuinely sorry for you.

By the way I'm wondering who this mythical coach is who gets all these things right? No doubt you all think that Brian McDermott should be approached, then again Brian Noble has a pretty good record of WINNING things doesn't he? Maybe....

We cannot judge Wane until the end of the season.

IF Wigan tail off and don't make a final (i.e. same as last year) then he has failed. No discussions.

If he makes a final then jury is out

If he wins one then it's a tick for me

If he wins two then he get's a gold star

Sounds reasonable enough if you ONLY look at results. Might there be mitigating circumstances?

Luck? - Bounce of the ball/brainstorms by otherwise good players/Ref decisions/
Injuries? - losing his best player (s)
Quality of play? - potential for improvement

Let's say he goes into a semi without Sam/Sean/Micky Mac then the ref makes poor decisions on crucial plays and we lose by one point (not unlikely) - do you blame SW and look for someone else or do you do the reasonable thing and say - "well you've won the league/you've brought youngsters through in place of seasoned internationals who have left/you've shown us enough to suggest that with better fortune we could have won"

On that basis do you give him another year.

If you say NO than I'll bet Man U fans are glad you weren't around in 1989 (sorry to use a football analogy - but it's just so good an example of people offering the benefit of the doubt and backing their judgement rather than the thousands of examples when they do the knee-jerk thing and sack the coach)

All fair points but he's HAD a year, this will be his second.........

If he was building a team up from scratch then I would agree with you, but he wasn't- he inherited a Championship winning team, knew the players, knew the coaching style etc etc etc

Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011 Wigan made more tackle under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011 Wigan missed more tackles under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 but less than under McGuire in 2011. Wigans points difference under Wane in 2012 is better than under McGuire in 2010 or 2011, although points conceded is up slightly than under McGuire. Wigan made more tackle busts AND clean breaks under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011. www.superleague.co.uk/stats/clubstats

Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011 Wigan made more tackle under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011 Wigan missed more tackles under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 but less than under McGuire in 2011. Wigans points difference under Wane in 2012 is better than under McGuire in 2010 or 2011, although points conceded is up slightly than under McGuire. Wigan made more tackle busts AND clean breaks under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011. www.superleague.co.uk/stats/clubstats