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[color=#000000:1qsyq8gi]Wigan Warriors 2010:[/color:1qsyq8gi] [color=red:1qsyq8gi]Super League Champions League Leaders Under 20's Champions Club of The Year Floodlit 9's Winners Pat Richards: Man Of Steel Sam Tomkins: Young Player of the Year Michael Maguire: Coach of the Year[/color:1qsyq8gi] [quote="Wire_91":1qsyq8gi]its your first final in about 8 years and now you ravin and rantin about it F**k off, and ill be going old trafford tomoz cheering on the saints and ill be writing on this forum givin you loads of shi* when your drying you eyes and the wire fan will be here handing out the tissues in the thousands, thats if you do take that many fans cause now it looks like its your fans who have jumped on the band wagon now your in a final, this time last year there was only 1000 people in the jjb and now its fillin up cause youve won the league hahaha proper true supporters you are[/quote:1qsyq8gi]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_26076.jpg



from the starting 17 this year:

1. Mathers out - Phelps in. Stronger? Yes.
3. Gleeson in - Goulding to cover. Stronger? Yes.
6. Smith out - Tomkins in. Stronger? Yes.
11. Hock out - Mossop in. Stronger? No but Mossop gets 2 years experience developing into a better and better player, Hock comes back, Mossop goes to prop. Stronger in the long run? Yes.
12. Bailey out - Joel/Hansen in. Stronger? Yes. The only thing we're losing from Bailey if he does go is experience, Hansens just as good in Defence, if not better and Joels attack is awesome especially close to our line, he scores with ease outwide.

People need to stop gettin their knickers in a twist over everything, at the end of the day we are going in the right direction developing our young players in this way and i have every faith in Lenegan. Look at Leeds, they took a few years out to develop the likes of McGuire, Burrow, Sinfield, Diskin, Gibson, Hall and look where we are now. We can be there in a couple of years if we just be patient and take the good with the bad, we've got a good breed of young players making their way and Sam, Joel, Mossop, O'Loughlin, Ainscough, Goulding, Prescott, O'Carroll, Farrell will be the backbone of our team for the next decade guarranteed. They aint going anywhere with Lenegan in charge.

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Quote: thepriestman85 "But that’s not strictly true now is it?

Yes I agree the recruitment for next season isn’t what i’d either want or expected but IL has done other good things with some of the wages you mentioned above.

Just to refresh your memory he’s signed up the most talented young player in SL to a FIVE year deal as well as resigning the current in form FB as well. Even a staunch IL critic like yourself has to admit he’s done well here.

Yes I would love us to sign a top class player (prop) and I agree it’s frustrating watching the likes of Pauleta, Carvell & Tronc going to other teams while players like Lynch, Price & Petro stay at their current clubs but it’s not all doom and gloom.'"


Im not a "staunch" critic. He has cocked up the Noble issue without doubt and with regards his recruitment, Im not impressed. Alot of other things are very good yes, but surely Mick Hogan has to take much of that credit.

Yes resigning Sam & Phelps are excellent moves, but SURELY with Hock & Bailey alone going we could afford a player like Tronc. A prop is a must and IL is failing to deliver and this "must be affordable/right" claptrap doesnt wash, do Saints put every player through these tests, if so IL is shopping at the wrong clubs or needs to rethink his ideas.

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Quote: Mother Feka "They aint going anywhere with Lenegan in charge.'"


Super, but other clubs bring in experience and quality to suppliment that homegrown talent, and to do so they pay the going rate, something IL doesnt seem to want to do.

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[color=#000000:1qsyq8gi]Wigan Warriors 2010:[/color:1qsyq8gi] [color=red:1qsyq8gi]Super League Champions League Leaders Under 20's Champions Club of The Year Floodlit 9's Winners Pat Richards: Man Of Steel Sam Tomkins: Young Player of the Year Michael Maguire: Coach of the Year[/color:1qsyq8gi] [quote="Wire_91":1qsyq8gi]its your first final in about 8 years and now you ravin and rantin about it F**k off, and ill be going old trafford tomoz cheering on the saints and ill be writing on this forum givin you loads of shi* when your drying you eyes and the wire fan will be here handing out the tissues in the thousands, thats if you do take that many fans cause now it looks like its your fans who have jumped on the band wagon now your in a final, this time last year there was only 1000 people in the jjb and now its fillin up cause youve won the league hahaha proper true supporters you are[/quote:1qsyq8gi]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_26076.jpg



Quote: AJ "Super, but other clubs bring in experience and quality to suppliment that homegrown talent, and to do so they pay the going rate, something IL doesnt seem to want to do.'"


He's brought in Gleeson, a regular GB/England international and he payed the going rate.
We have Carmont, Richards, O'Loughlin Gleeson, Fielden, Riddell, Roberts, Coley virtually half of the 17 with bags of experience, some others like Leuluai, Prescott, Goulding, Hansen have their fair share of experience aswell despite being young.
Theres 6 friggin months till the new season yet, he's got time to sign people - he's just not rushing and signing someone for the sake of it, if Mo was in charge we probably would have signed some big aussie on Massive wages like Willie Mason straight away without going into fitness/injury/form/visa problems. And Sam Tomkins would probably be playing on the same contract he's on this year next year and end up getting snapped up by Huddersfield/Warrington/Saints because we cant afford to offer him what he's worth when it comes to contract time. Would you rather that happen?

Players like Tomkins, Mossop, Farrell, O'Loughlin, even Phelps are the key to our future success, we need to secure them lot first before anything else.

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Quote: Mother Feka "He's brought in Gleeson, a regular GB/England international and he payed the going rate. '"


Once, what about key "project" signings like Smith & Mathers?

Quote: Mother Feka "We have Carmont, Richards, O'Loughlin Gleeson, Fielden, Riddell, Roberts, Coley virtually half of the 17 with bags of experience, some others like Leuluai, Prescott, Goulding, Hansen have their fair share of experience aswell despite being young. '"


If we are counting on the likes of Goulding for experience, we are in trouble. We can count on Fielden for nowt. Carmont could well be on his way and half our fans cant stop slagging off Roberts!!! Yes, we do have experience, but that doesnt mean it is the right kind. Would you like any of the players mentioned to have the experience of someone like Wiki - the answer is yes.

Quote: Mother Feka "Theres 6 friggin months till the new season yet, he's got time to sign people - he's just not rushing and signing someone for the sake of it, if Mo was in charge we probably would have signed some big aussie on Massive wages like Willie Mason straight away without going into fitness/injury/form/visa problems. '"


He has basically said he wont be. It isnt for the sake of it, ill say it now, 2010 - No props, no pots! We cant sign anyone on massive wages because we have Fielden. Maurice did real bad with Aussies didnt he. Lam, Renouf, Trent, Pongia, Smith, Furner, Dallas?? But of course, IL is untouchable and Noble and seemingly Maurice are to blame for everything.

Quote: Mother Feka "And Sam Tomkins would probably be playing on the same contract he's on this year next year and end up getting snapped up by Huddersfield/Warrington/Saints because we cant afford to offer him what he's worth when it comes to contract time. Would you rather that happen? '"


Clearly I wouldnt rather it happen, to even ask that is idiotic, but lets be clear, if Sam has took such a payrise that we cant afford a prop than IL has made a mess of his new deal, if it is structrued to rise with his development then fine.

Quote: Mother Feka "Players like Tomkins, Mossop, Farrell, O'Loughlin, even Phelps are the key to our future success, we need to secure them lot first before anything else.'"


Farrell hasnt even played first team yet, to include him in the first team "key" future is interesting. He could totally bottle first team rugby.

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[color=#000000:1qsyq8gi]Wigan Warriors 2010:[/color:1qsyq8gi] [color=red:1qsyq8gi]Super League Champions League Leaders Under 20's Champions Club of The Year Floodlit 9's Winners Pat Richards: Man Of Steel Sam Tomkins: Young Player of the Year Michael Maguire: Coach of the Year[/color:1qsyq8gi] [quote="Wire_91":1qsyq8gi]its your first final in about 8 years and now you ravin and rantin about it F**k off, and ill be going old trafford tomoz cheering on the saints and ill be writing on this forum givin you loads of shi* when your drying you eyes and the wire fan will be here handing out the tissues in the thousands, thats if you do take that many fans cause now it looks like its your fans who have jumped on the band wagon now your in a final, this time last year there was only 1000 people in the jjb and now its fillin up cause youve won the league hahaha proper true supporters you are[/quote:1qsyq8gi]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_26076.jpg



icon_lol.gif You know what, i cant even be bothered. I bet IL wishes he never bought us anymore with this WE WANT EVERYTHING NOW BECAUSE WE ARE WIGAN attitude from some of our fans, its pathetic.

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Quote: Mother Feka "

It certainly gets exhausting, the bitterness and vitriol with which some fans speak about the club and the way it's run.

My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

For me the Wigan administration are getting only two things wrong at present - the lack of clarity regarding the coaching situation (though I concede that this may be out of their hands if someone they really want is 'stringing them along'), and our unfulfilled necessity for a crumping big front rower (and again I'm forced to concede that this may not be completely their fault, as they were clearly on the verge of signing Carl ebb until his drink-driving conviction came up).

There's another thing; IL and MH deserve more praise than they're getting for securing Sam Tomkins's future at Wigan. I think most would agree that Sam is the most exciting player on the British scene at present. I wouldn't swap him for Eastmond and certainly not Myler. He's also been the subject of strong and sustained Rugby Union interest which this time we've fought off by the combination of gentle persuasion and a much improved deal. Almost exactly the same can be said, thus far at least, for Ian Thornley, who many fans are not yet aware of - trust me, this kid is also a special talent, and he's ours for the time being. Yet neither of these dynamic starlets have had the sort of ridiculous money thrown at them that Warrington, for example, have thrown at Myler. And before anyone grumbles about "oh, here we go again - it's all about getting value for money" as if that's something to be critical of, just consider that many of the problems we've suffered since about 2005 / 2006 are directly linked to us having spent too much money on one or two individuals who weren't delivering the goods, and whose presence at Wigan meant that we couldn't even fill the rest of the squad with adequate numbers let alone adequate talent. This penny-pinching atttitude that many fans seem to think will be our downfall is more likely to be the root of our future success.

I do wish some people could see the bigger picture. I'm very critical of Noble. I think his time's up and he's had his day, but I've said before and I'll say again - we've now got a large and pretty decent squad that has proved it can compete at the highest level when it's correctly prepared. We're not far off being a top side. Yes, we perhaps need one or two new signings, but I'm not going to complain with the sort of unrestrained anger, annoyance and frustration that many fans are merely because the chairman has done due diligence on several potential new recruits and made an informed decision on the basis of this that they aren't the sort of players to take the club forward.

That to me sounds like a rational and meticulous approach, rather than stinginess, lack of interest, lack of ambition, whatever folks these days are calling it. We're going the right way at Wigan. It's slower than many of us would like, but we're not the only club doing this and it's arrogant to assume that putting us back at the top of the tree should be manageable within two short years.

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Quote: Cruncher "It certainly gets exhausting, the bitterness and vitriol with which some fans speak about the club and the way it's run.

My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

For me the Wigan administration are getting only two things wrong at present - the lack of clarity regarding the coaching situation (though I concede that this may be out of their hands if someone they really want is 'stringing them along'), and our unfulfilled necessity for a crumping big front rower (and again I'm forced to concede that this may not be completely their fault, as they were clearly on the verge of signing Carl ebb until his drink-driving conviction came up).

There's another thing; IL and MH deserve more praise than they're getting for securing Sam Tomkins's future at Wigan. I think most would agree that Sam is the most exciting player on the British scene at present. I wouldn't swap him for Eastmond and certainly not Myler. He's also been the subject of strong and sustained Rugby Union interest which this time we've fought off by the combination of gentle persuasion and a much improved deal. Almost exactly the same can be said, thus far at least, for Ian Thornley, who many fans are not yet aware of - trust me, this kid is also a special talent, and he's ours for the time being. Yet neither of these dynamic starlets have had the sort of ridiculous money thrown at them that Warrington, for example, have thrown at Myler. And before anyone grumbles about "oh, here we go again - it's all about getting value for money" as if that's something to be critical of, just consider that many of the problems we've suffered since about 2005 / 2006 are directly linked to us having spent too much money on one or two individuals who weren't delivering the goods, and whose presence at Wigan meant that we couldn't even fill the rest of the squad with adequate numbers let alone adequate talent. This penny-pinching atttitude that many fans seem to think will be our downfall is more likely to be the root of our future success.

I do wish some people could see the bigger picture. I'm very critical of Noble. I think his time's up and he's had his day, but I've said before and I'll say again - we've now got a large and pretty decent squad that has proved it can compete at the highest level when it's correctly prepared. We're not far off being a top side. Yes, we perhaps need one or two new signings, but I'm not going to complain with the sort of unrestrained anger, annoyance and frustration that many fans are merely because the chairman has done due diligence on several potential new recruits and made an informed decision on the basis of this that they aren't the sort of players to take the club forward.

That to me sounds like a rational and meticulous approach, rather than stinginess, lack of interest, lack of ambition, whatever folks these days are calling it. We're going the right way at Wigan. It's slower than many of us would like, but we're not the only club doing this and it's arrogant to assume that putting us back at the top of the tree should be manageable within two short years.'"


Great post.

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Quote: Cruncher "It certainly gets exhausting, the bitterness and vitriol with which some fans speak about the club and the way it's run.

My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

For me the Wigan administration are getting only two things wrong at present - the lack of clarity regarding the coaching situation (though I concede that this may be out of their hands if someone they really want is 'stringing them along'), and our unfulfilled necessity for a crumping big front rower (and again I'm forced to concede that this may not be completely their fault, as they were clearly on the verge of signing Carl ebb until his drink-driving conviction came up).

There's another thing; IL and MH deserve more praise than they're getting for securing Sam Tomkins's future at Wigan. I think most would agree that Sam is the most exciting player on the British scene at present. I wouldn't swap him for Eastmond and certainly not Myler. He's also been the subject of strong and sustained Rugby Union interest which this time we've fought off by the combination of gentle persuasion and a much improved deal. Almost exactly the same can be said, thus far at least, for Ian Thornley, who many fans are not yet aware of - trust me, this kid is also a special talent, and he's ours for the time being. Yet neither of these dynamic starlets have had the sort of ridiculous money thrown at them that Warrington, for example, have thrown at Myler. And before anyone grumbles about "oh, here we go again - it's all about getting value for money" as if that's something to be critical of, just consider that many of the problems we've suffered since about 2005 / 2006 are directly linked to us having spent too much money on one or two individuals who weren't delivering the goods, and whose presence at Wigan meant that we couldn't even fill the rest of the squad with adequate numbers let alone adequate talent. This penny-pinching atttitude that many fans seem to think will be our downfall is more likely to be the root of our future success.

I do wish some people could see the bigger picture. I'm very critical of Noble. I think his time's up and he's had his day, but I've said before and I'll say again - we've now got a large and pretty decent squad that has proved it can compete at the highest level when it's correctly prepared. We're not far off being a top side. Yes, we perhaps need one or two new signings, but I'm not going to complain with the sort of unrestrained anger, annoyance and frustration that many fans are merely because the chairman has done due diligence on several potential new recruits and made an informed decision on the basis of this that they aren't the sort of players to take the club forward.

That to me sounds like a rational and meticulous approach, rather than stinginess, lack of interest, lack of ambition, whatever folks these days are calling it. We're going the right way at Wigan. It's slower than many of us would like, but we're not the only club doing this and it's arrogant to assume that putting us back at the top of the tree should be manageable within two short years.'"

eusa_clap.gif
Hurrah, some common sense.

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Well said Cruncher.

Any chance of making that a sticky at the top of the board?

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Quote: Cruncher "snip'"



The only thing I am slightly dubious of is the duty of care line that in my opinion may come back to bite us on the behind.

Obviously there has to be investigation into the fitness and suitability of a player but i do think that not making a move for Tronc or O'Meley may prove to be a mistake, only time will tell though i guess.

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Quote: jonh "The only thing I am slightly dubious of is the duty of care line that in my opinion may come back to bite us on the behind.

Obviously there has to be investigation into the fitness and suitability of a player but i do think that not making a move for Tronc or O'Meley may prove to be a mistake, only time will tell though i guess.'"


I agree. As I said, or at least intimated, one of the things I think we've handled badly has been our search for a new prop.

Time will tell on that.

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Quote: Mother Feka "

A poster on the other forum has quoted Ian Lenagan saying to him he wants instant success at Wigan. Is this pathetic as well?

My sole issue with Ian Lenagan currently is the way he has dealt with the prop forward situation. We have needed to strengthen in this area for the last two years and we have failed to do so. We've missed Carl Webb - not all IL's fault but I do not see why we could not have had a back up plan should the inevitable happen and him not get a visa?

I am irritated when we keep missing out on players and clubs keep on strengthening. Wakefield Wildcats signing Tronc and Hull FC signing Mark O'Meley. Jason Ryles moving to Les Catalans last year and Gareth Carvell moving to Warrington. We continue to miss out on that one signing that will make a massive difference to this team. We're not far off being a very class outfit but we are constantly let down each year by the inadequate recruitment to bring in a top draw prop. Each season we are told next year, next year, next year. When do we draw a line to this and say - right that is it let's get us a top prop forward that we so desperately need!

I don't want mass amount of signings each year and I agree with some points other posters make about patience and build your side around your young players but we need to recognise that this can't be done without the class and experience of top players to help the young lads along. Leeds have it with Danny Buderus, Brent Webb, Ali Lauititi etc and Saints have them with Tony Puletua, Matt Gidley etc


So if by being disappointed in having another season without the prop forward we need and the loss of Gareth Hock and (possibly) Phil Bailey and not replacing them taking us backwards means I am being unfair to Ian Lenagan and impatient - then I apologise.

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Quote: Cruncher "I
My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.'"


I agree with most of what else you say in your post but the above is IMO a bit too simplistic in how it lambastes the previous administration.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to that style of leadership but IL's style isn't perfect either IMO. Mistakes have been made IMO over the way Higham was treated and how the coaching issue has been handled. I don't think the "we don't know what is going on behind the scenes" excuse is a good enough excuse.

As to Mo signing players we certainly did sign some players on big money but they were not expected to fail. If Fielden and DV had lived up to their billings there would be no complaints.

It is very easy to point to players like these to take pot shots at the previous administration but do you honestly think they signed them because they thought they would play like they did? Hindsight is a wonderful thing because it gives you 20:20 vision.

As AJ pointed out Mo signed plenty of other overseas players who were great players.

I would go further and say when we got done on the salary cap for renegotiating the contracts to allow us to sign Fielden Mo and the club was hard done by. Doing what he did with the contracts was and is allowed in the NRL so why the RFL decided to act differently is the interesting question. IMO the reason we got done on a subjective view of this not being in the spirit of the cap was the fuss and the press stirred up by certain other clubs. Typical RFL who make it up as they go along. Had common sense prevailed it would have been a master stroke of administration of getting in a prop who went long way to help save us from relegation while sticking within the salary cap. As it is even Wigan fans will use this to have a go at him because it is convenient.

I am happy to believe for now that IL is running the club in a way he considers in its best interests but whether people want to admit it or not, so did Mo.

It is going to be interesting to see how things progress over the next few years but when IL says we won't be signing anyone we are basically going into next season with the same side that lost 11 games this. Also when he says we will only sign world class overseas players the season after signing two distinctly average overseas players , then signs none for 2010 is it any wonder there is some skepticism developing? Actions speak louder than words and at the moment we are a bit short on the action.

There may be good reasons in the short term not to sign these world class players and stick with what we have got (though he did say 2010 was the year he would be free to act just after he arrived) but this has got to be a short term thing because good though our youth system is I doubt it is capable of producing enough top class players to make Wigan a success on its own.

Dave

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[quote="Rogues Gallery"]I'm with LondonRobster on this.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_35760.jpg



Quote: Mother Feka "

I'm right behind this post and Crunchers great one too. If I were IL and brought the club of my dreams clearly with a smart business head wanting to get the finances sorted so we build a better deeper squad, i would be distraught at some of the posts on here of late.

Whether you like IL, Noble, fielden or the late Mathers, you have to agree not one of them is not trying 100%. Some might not be clever enough, talented enough, fit enough or full of confidence but some of the irrational things written on here will do nothing apart from demote the people trying (badly or not) to lift this club back to where it was.

I for one think IL is the owner we need and I hope he stays for years and years. Noble to date has done a lot for the future of this cluband Fielden, a proud man clearly needs support and wants to be backed. he knows full well he is not performing and the crowds are not on his side, but have you ever seen him not try?

As it stands there are some posters (who I will not name but youy know who you are) who never say anything positive to the point they seem to only enjoy pointing out the failings.

Drives me nuts.

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