Has to start on Friday.

We looked lost in defense up the middle before he came on .We desperately missed his tackles.

I would move lockers to 10 to start the game and play smithies at 13 from the off instead of Clubb

I Would also start Flower instead of Partington.

I would then review the option of weather to bring greenwood on to the bench with a choice between Clubb Partington and Byrne for 2 spots.

Partington was way out of his depth, his first up defence was horrendous and offered no go forward in attack. Lam has a massive job just figuring out his best 17 next week.

Those 72 tackles against Salford must have taken its toll. The superleague website is showing his age is 49!

No matter which way around you play them, they will get knocked from pillar to post at Old Trafford (if we should even get there).

Just let Salford have a shot at Saints. At least they have a set of forwards that will actually get stuck in and not stand around looking shell shocked as the backs try to make metres.

Last thing we need is to allow Saints some more gloating to add to the 75-0. I cant think of anything worse than a Grand Final drubbing to Saints. I was there when Bradford took us apart in the Grand Final and its a horrible feeling.

Giving up again I see?
Interesting way to view things - I've lost count of the number of Times we've been written off and our greatest victories happened off the Back of it Brisbane 94 & Murrayfield 02 being 2 of the biggest and most recognisable

Yeah, lets throw the game.

Christ. Yeah let's run away. I'd hate to have you defending us on the front line.

I'd rather play in a final and have a 10% chance of winning than not play in it at all. Tony Smith made a smart tongue in cheek comment after the 2016 final when he was asked about how horrible his players must be feeling. He said if you're afraid of losing in a final then just don't play in them. To have a chance of winning you can't be afraid of losing.

Saints won’t have the stones to play with that sort of freedom at Old Trafford. They had the get out of jail card and we know how dangerous they’ve been with a free hit like that up their sleeve. It’s a big ‘if’ but if we can beat a quality Salford team and get through to Old Trafford Friday night could well be the best thing to have happened to us. We could go in to a final with zero expectation, zero pressure and a team who will surely want to right the wrongs of Friday. It only takes a couple of dropped balls or a dodgy decision to get this Saints lot panicking and Friday will certainly not have focussed their minds anymore. We’ve seen our lads bounce back when we’ve least expected it in the past, so I wouldn’t put up the white flag yet.

You're right about our mental fragility.

I was more concerned about Wire to be honest as on their day they have a front row that can mix it with ours.

Famous last words but we've steamrolled Wigan 4 times this year up front and I'm struggling to see that changing in the final should you get there as you simply aren't big enough.

Did they play with freedom?

I posted on the VT that Saints beat us with 5 drives and a kick and don’t think I’ve changed my mind. They played basic rugby, not amazing, throw-it-around and offload entertaining rugby. Just steamrolled us with strong carries from the forwards and backs. Mainly due to how our forwards are coached. Imagine Luke Thompson hitting the deck as soon as he gets hit to “get a quick play the ball and into the halves hands”. It’s embarrassing. There’s a reason he’s one of the best props in the world. AND he backs it up with defence. Our props do half of his job (barely).

So back to the original thread.

Smithies has to start at 13 with Flower and lockers starting props and Greenwood, Byrne and either Clubb or Partington on the Bench

When I say freedom, I mean mentally as much as anything. Their minds were totally focused but was that because if that back up card? They were off the line in defence, pushing up in attack, throwing flat line balls around the middle of the field and everything stuck. They were fantastic and in all the dissecting of our performance this week I think we’ve over looked that in some ways.

If they can play like that in a final I’ll be surprised. If we make the final then we need to watch the Halifax semi final if they need some confidence. Sheer guts and hard work by some part time players caused a Saints side problems and those old doubts crept in even against that opposition.

You’re more than likely right. Don’t get me wrong, I’d go in with very little confidence we could win the game (and hand on heart I think we may well get beat Friday anyway) but much bigger upsets have happened in recent times and we have previous for gritting finals out.

You should win it and you will win it IMO but stranger things have happened.

In Brisbane we had match winners at or close to their peak all over the park. If you think this team is capable of any sort of recreation of that performance with Tony Clubb leading the charge then you are living in la la land. Murrayfield we had the likes of Craig Smith, Radlinski, Newton, Connolly, Farrell, Dallas and Lam. On paper the team was just as good as Saints, we all knew that if we played well we could challenge them even if we were underdogs.

With the current team, we are not even close to them on paper in the forwards. Not only are our forwards not as good, they are smaller, not as fit and not as athletic. They will steamroller us again and any attempt to commit more men in gang tackles will result in spaces elsewhere which their equally skillful and speedy backs will exploit. Barring one of their players getting sent of as Flower did in 2014, we have no chance of getting within 18 and i dont see why you would be so keen to see us humiliated like that especially against that lot.

Because were Wigan
We want to Win things
To win things you have to be in Finals
You cant be scared of what May happen