| FORUMS > Wigan Warriors > Undervaluing our own produced players |
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Fans Forum 28.08.08 Fan from Haydock
"I've got one word for you Mr Chairman - Penalty Count"
[quote="The Daddy"]I've got one word for you all......Steve Hanley[/quote]
Some Salford fan said to me and I quote "You are by far and away the most Handsome & Knowledgeable Rugby League Fan in England!"
I thanked him and went on my Merry way!
RIVERCAVE DWELLER OF THE YEAR 2015!
"The club used you last night and didn't tell the truth."
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Just before the start of the season I wrote quite a long post about trying to be positive for the new season etc. And although not everything I was positive about has come to fruition (Sarge for example, although I was abig gelling fan and others aren't, and maybe the props) however at the end of my post I wrote the :-
"One Final thing though
I mentioned If Gildart had been a new signing the fans would be happier etc.
Wigan have took some stick in off season but we have to remember the "Youth" players brought through by the club and fully value their worth.
If We had to go out and Buy a Gildart, Burgess, Sutton, Shorrocks. Tom Davies, Wells, Marshall etc. it would cost us either in big transfers or inflated wages. yet I suspect the "Fans" would be happy as it would appear that the club was splashing the cash.
Well IMO they are splashing the cash, but they're doing it at the front end, investing in youth, investing in the future.
When these lads develop they renegotiate their contracts and when we then Improve their Pay due to advanced progression such as Williams/Gildart/Burgess/Sutton etc. in recent years we almost forget the clubs investment previously in them and I think some take these players for granted.
I've seen how Wire are being given credit for going out and signing new players and the fans are lapping it up, fair play to them, but I'm not sure going out every 2/3 years and paying big money/wages for players is the way to go as a Plan for the future? If these signings don't work out or get injured etc where is the infrastructure behind this plan?
Wigan are investing in these youngsters, they're rewarding these youngsters with Good 1st team money when necessary and for me these should be seen as signings, not taken for granted.
Anyway, onwards & upwards"
Now I just happened to stumble across a thread on the Wire board bemoaning the talent produced by their academy and a comparison was made with the Wigan production line.
Now when you look at the players wire have listed as products of their academy and compare it to Wigans it is frightening the difference in both numbers and quality.
Secondly you look at a lot of the wigan talent that wasn't identified by the Wire fans ot makes you realise how vast the sifference actually is.
It reminded me of my post where I tried to explain how I feel the club don't get the credit it deserves from it's speccies for producing these lads and I have seen lots of posts were some fans are stating that a lot of our lads are getting over paid (or they seem to intimate that).
I could not disagree more and I likened the contract extensions and signing of young lads from the academy over the last 4/5 years and the improvements In their contracts is akin to going out and buying 2/3 New players every year yet the fans want to say "Wire have splashed the cash, why don't we?"
I made a comparison to wire and how their fans were lapping up their new big name signings but wasn't sure it's the way to go.
I'm more than happy front ending some of our money/wages and paying our youngsters what theyre worth and providing an environment for their development.
In the long run and certainly given the current rules on salary cap etc. It's got to be the way to go.
Check out the Wire thread
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=613636 |
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Just before the start of the season I wrote quite a long post about trying to be positive for the new season etc. And although not everything I was positive about has come to fruition (Sarge for example, although I was abig gelling fan and others aren't, and maybe the props) however at the end of my post I wrote the :-
"One Final thing though
I mentioned If Gildart had been a new signing the fans would be happier etc.
Wigan have took some stick in off season but we have to remember the "Youth" players brought through by the club and fully value their worth.
If We had to go out and Buy a Gildart, Burgess, Sutton, Shorrocks. Tom Davies, Wells, Marshall etc. it would cost us either in big transfers or inflated wages. yet I suspect the "Fans" would be happy as it would appear that the club was splashing the cash.
Well IMO they are splashing the cash, but they're doing it at the front end, investing in youth, investing in the future.
When these lads develop they renegotiate their contracts and when we then Improve their Pay due to advanced progression such as Williams/Gildart/Burgess/Sutton etc. in recent years we almost forget the clubs investment previously in them and I think some take these players for granted.
I've seen how Wire are being given credit for going out and signing new players and the fans are lapping it up, fair play to them, but I'm not sure going out every 2/3 years and paying big money/wages for players is the way to go as a Plan for the future? If these signings don't work out or get injured etc where is the infrastructure behind this plan?
Wigan are investing in these youngsters, they're rewarding these youngsters with Good 1st team money when necessary and for me these should be seen as signings, not taken for granted.
Anyway, onwards & upwards"
Now I just happened to stumble across a thread on the Wire board bemoaning the talent produced by their academy and a comparison was made with the Wigan production line.
Now when you look at the players wire have listed as products of their academy and compare it to Wigans it is frightening the difference in both numbers and quality.
Secondly you look at a lot of the wigan talent that wasn't identified by the Wire fans ot makes you realise how vast the sifference actually is.
It reminded me of my post where I tried to explain how I feel the club don't get the credit it deserves from it's speccies for producing these lads and I have seen lots of posts were some fans are stating that a lot of our lads are getting over paid (or they seem to intimate that).
I could not disagree more and I likened the contract extensions and signing of young lads from the academy over the last 4/5 years and the improvements In their contracts is akin to going out and buying 2/3 New players every year yet the fans want to say "Wire have splashed the cash, why don't we?"
I made a comparison to wire and how their fans were lapping up their new big name signings but wasn't sure it's the way to go.
I'm more than happy front ending some of our money/wages and paying our youngsters what theyre worth and providing an environment for their development.
In the long run and certainly given the current rules on salary cap etc. It's got to be the way to go.
Check out the Wire thread
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=613636 | |
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| Quote: Jukesays "Just before the start of the season I wrote quite a long post about trying to be positive for the new season etc. And although not everything I was positive about has come to fruition (Sarge for example, although I was abig gelling fan and others aren't, and maybe the props) however at the end of my post I wrote the :-
"One Final thing though
I mentioned If Gildart had been a new signing the fans would be happier etc.
Wigan have took some stick in off season but we have to remember the "Youth" players brought through by the club and fully value their worth.
If We had to go out and Buy a Gildart, Burgess, Sutton, Shorrocks. Tom Davies, Wells, Marshall etc. it would cost us either in big transfers or inflated wages. yet I suspect the "Fans" would be happy as it would appear that the club was splashing the cash.
Well IMO they are splashing the cash, but they're doing it at the front end, investing in youth, investing in the future.
When these lads develop they renegotiate their contracts and when we then Improve their Pay due to advanced progression such as Williams/Gildart/Burgess/Sutton etc. in recent years we almost forget the clubs investment previously in them and I think some take these players for granted.
I've seen how Wire are being given credit for going out and signing new players and the fans are lapping it up, fair play to them, but I'm not sure going out every 2/3 years and paying big money/wages for players is the way to go as a Plan for the future? If these signings don't work out or get injured etc where is the infrastructure behind this plan?
Wigan are investing in these youngsters, they're rewarding these youngsters with Good 1st team money when necessary and for me these should be seen as signings, not taken for granted.
Anyway, onwards & upwards"
Now I just happened to stumble across a thread on the Wire board bemoaning the talent produced by their academy and a comparison was made with the Wigan production line.
Now when you look at the players wire have listed as products of their academy and compare it to Wigans it is frightening the difference in both numbers and quality.
Secondly you look at a lot of the wigan talent that wasn't identified by the Wire fans ot makes you realise how vast the sifference actually is.
It reminded me of my post where I tried to explain how I feel the club don't get the credit it deserves from it's speccies for producing these lads and I have seen lots of posts were some fans are stating that a lot of our lads are getting over paid (or they seem to intimate that).
I could not disagree more and I likened the contract extensions and signing of young lads from the academy over the last 4/5 years and the improvements In their contracts is akin to going out and buying 2/3 New players every year yet the fans want to say "Wire have splashed the cash, why don't we?"
I made a comparison to wire and how their fans were lapping up their new big name signings but wasn't sure it's the way to go.
I'm more than happy front ending some of our money/wages and paying our youngsters what theyre worth and providing an environment for their development.
In the long run and certainly given the current rules on salary cap etc. It's got to be the way to go.
Check out the Wire thread
I doubt many teams would pay big money for the players you have mentioned, especially after the failures by Tomkins, Burgess and Sarg.
But, it's your world so be happy living in it.
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[quote="Frank Zappa":1sacjrvf]Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.[/quote:1sacjrvf]
[quote="The_Enforcer":1sacjrvf]Most idiotic post ever goes to Grimmy..... The way to restart should be an arm wrestle between a designated player from each side.[/quote:1sacjrvf]: |
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Not going to quote your post due to the size but fully agreed. Ask Bradford fans what happens when you rely on signing up big names, then ask Leeds fans what happens when you develop your own.
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While I agree with you on most of your post I do feel most fans do love a "big name" signing it puts, in a perfect world at least,bums on seats rather than see a lad coming through the system,isuppose as ever balance is whats needed maybe between the two systems.
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg
Fans Forum 28.08.08 Fan from Haydock
"I've got one word for you Mr Chairman - Penalty Count"
[quote="The Daddy"]I've got one word for you all......Steve Hanley[/quote]
Some Salford fan said to me and I quote "You are by far and away the most Handsome & Knowledgeable Rugby League Fan in England!"
I thanked him and went on my Merry way!
RIVERCAVE DWELLER OF THE YEAR 2015!
"The club used you last night and didn't tell the truth."
Officially one of the 119 Mugs used by the club:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: Ziggy Stardust "I doubt many teams would pay big money for the players you have mentioned, especially after the failures by Tomkins, Burgess and Sarg.
But, it's your world so be happy living in it.'"
Well for a start I never said that other clubs would pay big money for them, I said that the fans don't seem to give enough credit and almost take them for granted.
Your reply almost proves my point, Tomkins, Burgess, sarge failures?
Do you class williams/sutton/Davies etc. As failures?
If theyre failures What does that make ratchford/myler/atkins/lineham/westerman etc.? (And I could go on but won't, and i could do similar things for a lot of clubs also). Big money signings that have basically done very little and certainly in comparison with the players mentioned from Wigan that get criticised.
I appreciate a couple of the other responses saying a big name now and again puts bums on seats etc. And I do agree, it does get the juices flowing.
But as I said I think we have to get the balance right and creating an environment that brings 2/3 youngsters through per year, paying them the correct amount of money that their talent is worth in the market (I.e. the same as if we had to go and buy them like other clubs do) and then rewarding them with better contracts is the way to go. Supplement this with a big name every couple of years and I think that's just about right
What I wouldn't want to do is jeopardise those 7/8 youngsters coming through for the sake if trying to buy/pay too much money to 2/3 Big names every year.
I don't think it's sustainable
I don't want to create an environment where those players don't want to come because the club want a quick fix.
PS
Quite happy living in my world, if that's some kind of sly dig intimating that it's some kind of dream world then cheers, will do. |
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Yeah I agree with Jukes' post, but it still would have been lovely to have had a Ben Barba for a season. And think how those young players would have benefitted, as the Saints youngsters will do, from playing with someone of that quality.
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Unofficially the most boring poster on Cherry and White.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_5733.jpeg |
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Firstly I appreciate we can only speculate on this but the issue is t how much they are paid more if they produce the goods up to the value of that salary, and often the answer I would think is no.
Tomkins will be on massive money as will Williams given they are our marquee rule signings, neither being realistic have backed that up on the field. Sutton is probably not on too big a contract and it seems he will be off anyway which is fair enough, I would have been disappointed if we tried to throw big money at him as I personally just don’t see him as having the quality at the moment to justify a big contract.
Gildart is bang out of form at the moment but another who is angling for a new deal and big money. Is he worth that yet? Probably not in my opinion but I’ve no doubt he will get it and then be off anyway in 2 years.
I did question the length of contracts offered to Marshall and Davies at the time but they seem like a master stroke to be fair as I doubt either will be on big money but with Manfreddi injured, another who I envisage will not be on a huge contract, and the form of Burgess, who I don’t think will be earning his money given his performances compared to his salary.
It’s all well and good using Leeds as an example of how it should be, but how many of them have left to go to the NRL or even talked about it in the media, I can’t think of any first team players apart from Hardaker but that was due to untenable relations with the club due to off field issues.
We also need to address value of contract upgrades and value of those against performance.
I don’t see any other club with such an issue constantly hanging over our head of players going to “test” themselves in the NRL as we have at Wigan. There is a culture with the players that needs to be addressed. Even the bang average ones like Sutton/Sarginson or those not hitting their straps like Williams/Burgess and at the moment Gildart are keen to go and this is before we mention Bateman.
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It’s bang on in many respects. If we go and sign a player of the class of Williams or Gildart from elsewhere it would certainly cost us, both in transfer fees and higher wages but people get more excited about players coming in from outside the club. I love nothing better then seeing our youngsters break through and have a crack and I have enough patience to allow them to make mistakes and develop without ripping in to them but that’s not the same for everyone and that’s fair enough.
I do think there’s been times when we could strike a better balance though. Examples of this have been getting Sarginson or Mossop back, bringing Joel Tomkins back etc. I don’t think anyone would’ve argued with the Sam Tomkins or Joe Burgess resignings (remember we weren’t aware just how good Tom Davies and Liam Marshall were when we had the chance to get Burgess back) but plenty did when it was rumoured we were getting JT or Sarginson back (I actually wasn’t one of them). I think the club could’ve been a little more creative in those cases. I think the Mossop and Sarginson deslscwent through very late but still, maybe they could’ve sat on the money and waited to see who became available mid season.
Ultimately though I think we can be reasonably happy with the squad and it’s certainly young enough to keep on improving. It’ll be interesting to see who comes and goes for 2019.
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Well said, Jukes! There’s also the risk that “big name” signings, especially overseas ones, either don’t live up to their big name or leave early for “personal reasons” or whatever. I don’t think I need mention any names...
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On another point you mention, it’s somewhat odd what’s happened to Wire’s academy, given that it’s only 7 or 8 years since they were our main challengers at that level.
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Fans of any kind of sporting club crave “big name signings”, we do here as well. It gets the juices flowing and the fans something/something else to get excited about.
Bringing through youngsters is something that builds slowly. Unless you’re going watching academy games week in week out the majority of fans wouldn’t know whos who except for word of mouth. I hadn’t a clue who Marshall/Davies were when they made their Wigan debut - it sure didn’t take long to find out though with the level of their performances keeping Burgess out of the side. Youngsters that have that special quality that Sam had when he first broke through get the same reaction from fans as big name signings IMO. It excites the fans seeing a top class youngster named in the squad and watching him play. Williams was the next player of that ilk to come along.
I’m not too sure we’ve produced another brilliantly skilled player such as Sam when he first broke through. I just mentioned above about Williams and yes he is a class player on his day but we can all agree that since his mega money deal his form has taken a nose dive and Tomkins still hasn’t got going after returning from the NRL. Burgess and Gildart are very good players but their form also has taken a plunge recently.
What I don’t and never have understood either is the policy of re-signing players who have left for the NRL. Re-signing J Tomkins, Mossop and Leuluai were unnecessary and a bit naive IMHO in that we thought they were coming back better players when in actual fact they were probably worse off. I’ve not included Sarginson on that list as we haven’t seen enough of him to judge properly yet. Signing back Tomkins and Burgess simply couldn’t be argued with at the time both were rather unlucky in the NRL and Burgess showed glimpses of class at Souths.
With the exception of Burgess/S Tomkins signing back players doesn’t get anyone excited. I would much rather have seen a youth player promoted where possible or a decent signing made in their place. I don’t think signing failed NRL players is the future and we are doing it right with the youth at the club, having said that it does have to be properly balanced out. We can’t rely solely on youth, nor can we rely solely on big signings.
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I'd agree with the OP if the majority of the youth players it is more than likely referring to had since gone on to earn the money they are either already earning or demanding. I don't need to point out who I think those players are.
we do have an excellent youth system however and I would never lambast it. but what does not sit well with me is the apparent feeling in both our own produced youth and signed players is that a couple of years at wigan will see you off to the NRL. it won't, and the proof is in the pudding with the likes of Burgess and Sarge "having" to return. in fact other than Bateman I don't think any other wigan player who has either recently signed big bucks with us or has detailed aspiratiosn to play in OZ is ready for a move out there.
the club, for me, needs to be clamping down on this and saying look you may be good, you may have a had a decent year or two with us, but you are deluded if you think you are going to be a success in the NRL so soon. spend a few more years with us, then we won't step in your way AND you'll be ready and able to perform out there. and you'll get the big bucks to back up your confidence. until then, you are a wigan player so work on earning what you are on here!
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| Quote: Grimmy "Not going to quote your post due to the size but fully agreed. Ask Bradford fans what happens when you rely on signing up big names, then ask Leeds fans what happens when you develop your own.'"
Not sure on your point here, perhaps I've misunderstood.
Leeds only develop their own? They've had a good mix of their own talent and signings... they've got the mix right for the most part. |
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I think it's partly the case now that both chairmen and fans are wary of big signings because so many of them have flunked.
In earlier eras when we made massive signings - I'm thinking Hanley, Gregory, Lydon, Bell etc - the question never arose about whether they'd be any good or not. You expected them to live up to their star billing, and they all did. But now, strangely - and worryingly, given how much more money in real terms these men can command - you're never sure. For example, of the three Melbourne players we signed, only Ryan Hoffman did the business, and he was the one who was only ever going to stay for a single year. Aside from that (as I don't think you can classify Pat Richards and George Carmont as massive signings), the last overseas star we recruited who proved his status was Trent Barrett. And it's not just the Aussies. Stuart Fielden, anyone?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think we should stop making big signings. It's one of the most exciting aspects of following a sports team. But the risk these days seems to be massive. It's certainly less so when you're developing your own talent, though the efficiency of that system is reduced when these guys suddenly decide they want to go Down Under with only a couple of years' pro experience under their belts.
The only solution to that latter problem (if we're not going to raise the salary cap so that we can compete) is to tell these lads and their agents that they're won't be getting a safety net. In other words, if it all goes wrong for them in Aus, which it does for so many, they'll have to go through the whole rigmarole of finding themsleves a new club in the UK, and it won't be Wigan.
We might not be able to change this pernicious culture that has crept into the club, but we can make it less attractive.
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| Quote: Cruncher "
The only solution to that latter problem (if we're not going to raise the salary cap so that we can compete) is to tell these lads and their agents that they're won't be getting a safety net. In other words, if it all goes wrong for them in Aus, which it does for so many, they'll have to go through the whole rigmarole of finding themselves a new club in the UK, and it won't be Wigan.
We might not be able to change this pernicious culture that has crept into the club, but we can make it less attractive.'"
Yes, yes, yes!  |
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