Ive had quite in depth conversations over the last few days with fans from many clubs, some bigger clubs, some struggling clubs and the root cause of the decline of Rugby League in this country. You listen to fans of big clubs like ourselves and we bemoan the salary cap preventing growth, the fact we cant keep the cream of talent because the cap will never increase as smaller clubs can barely afford to survive as it is. The small clubs bemoan the fact that big clubs sign all the top amateur talent all over the country meaning they are left with scraps, cannot catch up because the big teams hoover up all the potential worldbeaters. Its a double edge sword. The big teams cant grow as theyd like, the small teams cannot survive or even compete with the bigger clubs leaving us with a major problem.

Well I started thinking about long term solutions from grassroots up to preserve the game because the RFL are clearly a clueless organisation.

Firstly, Catchment areas are introduced locally, similar to school catchment areas. Strict boundaries of amateur teams that fall within these boundaries supply a feeder club with amateur player signing for this feeder club if they fall within a specific area.

Secondly, A feeder club league similar to the NRL is introduced who in turn supply their respective professional team with players that have been nurtured through the catchment area, into a feeder club and then into professional ranks.

Thirdly, Laws are written into the game to prevent tapping up and transfer of players whilst coming through the catchment area, feeder club system and transfers occurr only at first grade level where the professional club will receive substantial finacial recompence to buy out of contract.

Forthly - A two tier super league system is put in place, 10 teams per league with relegation and promotion between the two tiers. Fixtures from both tiers receiving televison coverage and exposure etc. A variety of playoff systems could be discussed but ultimately a top 4 system I feel would be better to decide the champion. A similar system could be in place to decide promotion to the top tier.

The above points Ive put across in as basic a priciple as possible without going into intricate detail but you get the drift of the idea. Its a long term thing that protects all clubs and encourages local development at grass roots level. IE wigan would have links with St Pats etc, Whitehaven with Kells, Cas with lock lane, Wakey with Normy knights etc etc. It stops all locally produced talent just being shipped out elsewhere, promotes home grown talent, helps all teams develop at an equal rate, producing a more competitive league which will go from strength to strength rather than teh current catch 22 situation we currently have.

The soloution was there before the RFL Changed it, its was called town team rugby. This was run as schools but the talent was realistically drawn from local clubs. If you did not go to school in Wigan you was not on the Wigan Town Team.

With the introduction of Scholorships came the offer to sign lads from outside the district, this just ripped the heart out of the pro clubs who lost their best talent at the age of 15. Some would argue that the old system didnt allow for people who did not have a strong hot bed of rugby, i.e. Bolton but i believe that was a lame excuse, its not hard to nominate alternative areas to cover the pick up. ie.e Bolton share with Leigh

There is one particular person in the community game pushing madly to get the links system working as you suggest i just hope some people listen because you are right that will help grow other clubs that have been struggling to keep/grow their own talent

The game needs a massive overhaul.

I think there should be 2 x 9 team leagues, all playing each other home and away and then playing each of the teams from the lower league / super league 1 away once. This would provide a 24 game season. At the end of the season Promotion and relegation between the two leagues could take place

IMAGINE LEAGUE MAKE UP

Super league 1

Wigan
Wire
Saints
Leeds
Hudds
Hull
Hull KR
Bulls
Catalan

Super league 2

Salford
Widnes
London
Cas
Wakey
Leigh
Fax
Fev
Sheffield

Salary cap between the two league could differ slightly i:e £1.2m in League 2 and £1.6m in league 1 but at least there would be full time clubs in two leagues and the leagues would be very competitive.

Thoughts

Lothlorian,
What would stop the hoovering up of talent would be a player rating system.
Each club has a first team match day ratings of 100 points
Whereby a player coming through the local ranks (club trained) get minimal points on the rating. So even Internationals such as Sam, Roby and Danny McGuire would get a max of 4 points. So if effect you could have a 17 man team of Internationals provided they were produced locally.

Those who were poached from ourside that local area (federation trained) get a premium of 10 points plus their ability and experience points. So the likes of Hansen, Hardaker and Burrow would be 14 team point players as they are Internationals and came from Salford, Featherstone and Castleford respectively.

Overseas players (Non Federation Trained) would have a premium of 14 points plus their ability points. So Monaghan and Hohaia, both Internationals, would be 18 point players.

It would be surprising to see how few 14 or 18 point players you could get in a match day 17 with 100 points as the maximum number.
That would stop the poaching of quality players from bottom end clubs like Cas, Wakey and HKR.
This would be a transparent sytem understood by all with minimal administration.

Decline of rugby league in this country, you say?
Huh?
Attendances growing year on year.
England team rapidly improving. (just compare to the woeful 2008 WC team)
All it needs is another Frenchy team to replace one of the flatcap armies and we're flying.

- Change SL to 12 tier League
- Bring back Promotion and Relegation
- Someone else in charge of refs
- Have an actual sponsor in super league that will pump a bit of money into clubs

add to that, put someone in charge at the red hall who has a clue and bingo!

Whilst the idea in theory is sound, I think in practise it would run into the law. Something about restraint of trade not allowing a youth player to sign outside of their area. The points system suggested would bypass this as it's not stopping an individual but a club and the club would have to sign up to this rule to compete a bit like the cap at the moment.

In a way though the player drain is not the cause of the problem just a symptom. The real issue is revenues and how they have fallen compared to our competitors. People have said that the RFL have pushed the stadia issue too far, forcing clubs to develop stadia they cannot afford. But if you look at those clubs who have managed to develop new stadia this on the whole has managed to bring in more fans for SL clubs and a more secure financial future.

I don't think there is a silver bullet for the problem of revenues as this is down to how each club manages it's finances. In terms of a league structure I would favour 2 equal leagues. It does not resolve the money issue but it would resolve some of the competitive issues.

Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Salford, Widnes, Wrexham, Catalan, Another French team (Toulouse)

Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Cas, Wakey, London.

If everyone plays home and away in their own league, that's 14 games. This should ensure the smaller clubs get their big payday's as the derbies are still in place. At the moment there is no viable option for a London Derby, but if there was then I would introduce it. It also solves the intensity issue as the big clubs only play a smaller number of 'low intensity' games. ie Wigan would only play Salford, Widnes, Wrexham and Toulouse as opposed to (Salford, Widnes, Cas, Wakey, London, Hull K.R, (Huddersfield depending))

I know 14 games is not enough, so at this point in the season cross divisional games come into play. The top 4 from each division play each other home and away. The bottom 4 play each other home and away. 6 more games. This leads to 20 games per club. It throws some bias into the system too, meaning the lower placed team get an oppertunity to close the gap and make the playoffs.

After the cross divisional games. The leagues come back together for the last set of fixtures, the top 4 playing each other once more and the bottom 4 playing each other once more. Repeat fixtures I know, but we can't avoid this without more teams at present and 16 teams is pushing it with the players available.

This gives clubs 23 games if more are needed the the number of repeat fixture would need expanding, maybe home and away in the last set of games giving 26 games. Then the playoffs kick in.

Top 4 from each division 1v4, 2v3, 3v2, 4v1
Straight knockout comp.

This means finishing higher gives a distinct advantage to the top teams, but the cross divisional games means that a lower placed team may sneak in on the odd occasion.

The leagues would not be closed off, but a new team joining would have to meet minimum standards. In a way I'm not concerned about a salary cap, but I would suggest that a 3 year licence have some kind of break even clause, so a club cannot buy success through debt, but it does not stop money men gifting money to clubs, it just stops them leaving clubs with debts they cannot afford to repay over the long term.

The leagues long term could expand infinatley, with 20 teams you can have 2 leagues of 10. Even if just one club could be added, it does not matter so much that the leagues are uneven in size as the playoffs would decide the eventual champion so an even league is not required.

I can't see the current proposed 10 league suggestion catching on as whilst it puts teams against one another on a more competitive level, it's taking money from TV away from the likes of Cas, Salford, London and it's taking away the big payday derbies that generate revenue. Leigh Cas is never going to replace Leeds Cas, no matter how competitive the game is.

It means a bigger spread of the TV monies, but the big clubs get their derby paydays and more fixtures against bigger clubs more often, which may compensate for less TV money and hopefully get more fans in to watch more competitive games.

I think that you will start to see the decline this year. If you look at Wigan for example our team next year will be far weaker than this year. Going forward we will continue to lose our top talent to either RU or the NRL. Some clubs will be affected whilst others less so. For example if you look at Wire most of their top players are the wrong side of 30 so are of no real interest. Forwards cant really play in like for like positions in RU so I was always comforted with many of ours being contracted. NRL clubs rarely paid transfer fees but this is changing so everyone is now fair game. The only up side of this is money coming into our game in the form of transfer fees but this is short term. Agents will be advising thier clients to sign shorter contracts.

I dont really know what the answer is. The only real way of keeping players in our game is to pay them more. However how many clubs are actually able to afford to pay up to the limit as it stands now? For the ones that can then the issue is the level of the cap.

So many of my fellow supporters are not renewing next year. Lower crowds will mean less money coming in. As the top players move on then the standard of the game naturally declines. The lower the standard then the less money the RFL can command in sponsorship and TV rights. The less that comes in the worse the situation gets. Its a vicious circle.

We are staging the next world cup for both RL and RU in the next 3 years. Which competition would exite you most in terms of crowds etc? RL doesnt have this problem in Australia as their club game has thrived for years.

I can honestly say tha IMO our club game will be semi pro within 5 years and who knows where we will be after that.

I take your point about the England team but what difference will it really make if none of them play over here.

Its all very depressing

Quote: Tricky Dicky "The game needs a massive overhaul. I think there should be 2 x 9 team leagues, all playing each other home and away and then playing each of the teams from the lower league / super league 1 away once. This would provide a 24 game season. At the end of the season Promotion and relegation between the two leagues could take place IMAGINE LEAGUE MAKE UP Super league 1 Wigan Wire Saints Leeds Hudds Hull Hull KR Bulls Catalan Super league 2 Salford Widnes London Cas Wakey Leigh Fax Fev Sheffield Salary cap between the two league could differ slightly i Hey…You pretty much nicked my Idea! The only problem with your idea is too little home games for SL1 teams to break even - We would need a third round of fixtures against each other (half teams in league home / half away – on rotation) and then half the division up, with only 5 games away to SL2 opposition IMO. This would then be the perfect solution IMO- as I put in another forum (See my post in another thread which expands a little further viewtopic.php?f=2&t=539609&tsmp=1352035110&start=60). Cross pollination of fixtures ensures it is all one league (and not a re-branded championship), leads to less blow out boring games as more are evenly matched, and in the games which are SL2 v SL1 fixtures, given there are only a handfull of key fixtures for the SL2 teams to get up for, and they are at home, this should increase the chances of upset and ensure they are competitive for a handfull of games they can raise for, where they would not be as competitve week in week out (see featherstone in the cup last year).

Quote: Tricky Dicky "The game needs a massive overhaul. I think there should be 2 x 9 team leagues, all playing each other home and away and then playing each of the teams from the lower league / super league 1 away once. This would provide a 24 game season. At the end of the season Promotion and relegation between the two leagues could take place IMAGINE LEAGUE MAKE UP Super league 1 Wigan Wire Saints Leeds Hudds Hull Hull KR Bulls Catalan Super league 2 Salford Widnes London Cas Wakey Leigh Fax Fev Sheffield Salary cap between the two league could differ slightly i Hey…You pretty much nicked my Idea! The only problem with your idea is too little home games for SL1 teams to break even - We would need a third round of fixtures against each other (half teams in league home / half away – on rotation) and then half the division up, with only 5 games away to SL2 opposition IMO. This would then be the perfect solution IMO- as I put in another forum (See my post in another thread which expands a little further viewtopic.php?f=2&t=539609&tsmp=1352035110&start=60). Cross pollination of fixtures ensures it is all one league (and not a re-branded championship), leads to less blow out boring games as more are evenly matched, and in the games which are SL2 v SL1 fixtures, given there are only a handfull of key fixtures for the SL2 teams to get up for, and they are at home, this should increase the chances of upset and ensure they are competitive for a handfull of games they can raise for, where they would not be as competitve week in week out (see featherstone in the cup last year).

Many years ago in the 50s and early 60s there was only one division which consisted of 30 clubs and to get away from having to play 58 matches they used the following method.
There where 15 clubs in Yorkshire and 13 in Lancashire at the time (Barrow was in Lancashire) Workington and Whitehaven where then included in the Lancashire side of things,which meant 15 from Lanc's and 15 from York;s.
This meant you had 28 fixtures when you played each team home and away from your County and to beef the fixtures up to the 36 matches it was at that time, all the Lancashire Clubs played 4 teams from Yorkshire home and away and the Yorkshire did the same (they played 4 teams from Lancashire)
The 4 teams you played from the opposite County I think was based on the previous seasons placings.
Having checked the 1954/55 season the 4 Yorkshire teams Wigan (who had finished 4th) played finished 1st,4th, 8th and 12th the previous season in a 30 team league.
This system seemed to work quite well for a few years.

So putting something like this into the previous suggestion of the poster who said 9 teams in each division could be worked on, 16 matches against teams from your own league and 8 matches against the other league.
How you picked the 4 teams from the other league would be open to debate,it could be based on previous league placings or more on a regional basis which would give some cracking local derbys.
It is only a very basic idea and I could see a lot of obstruction from Sky and fitting promotion and relegation into it may be a problem,but it can't be any dafter that the present playoff system.

I think this hits the nail on the head about possible problems with the initial idea. Any kind of restriction that would force youngsters in Leigh to sign with Leigh as juniors and be paid a low wage compared to signing with Wire for much higher wages will never work. There has to be little to no financial disadvantage to restricting who junior players can sign for for it to work.



This is THE issue. Had the RFL got the nous to get a £38m a-season TV deal out of a broadcaster as the RU Premiership has just got out of BT Vision we could have a far better structure than we do now and pay players enough to remove the financial consideration from the question of moving to RU or the NRL.

As it is there is barely enough money to run a 12 team super league on so called professional lines. Any idea of a two division super league with more teams in it than 12 is a complete non-starter unless there is a lot more money to distribute to all the teams involved. Any form of promotion and relegation between any kind of league structure is only feasible if financially it isn't a complete disaster to get relegated (and equally doesn't require clubs to secure a huge increase in revenue to compete once promoted).

The fact RU have got this TV deal when their viewing figures on Sky are worse than for Super League leaves me pointing the finger at the RFL for their abject failure to secure more revenues for the game.

As I have said on another thread despite the so called time of austerity we live in, RU has just got this £38m a year deal while we are supposed to accept giving away free sponsorship to Stobart's is all we can hope for.