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FORUMS > Wigan Warriors > Marquee players ?????? |
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| Quote: WiganBurt "funny how a couple of months ago I was on here bemoaning cap mismanagement, recruitment and coaching structures and styles and I got jumped on like a seagull on an icecream! couple of bad losses and you all agree now. well i'm glad it took that for you to realise what I've been saying since 2017!
wane shouldn't go now, he needs to fix this before the end of his final season with us or lose credibility and potentially his future options should they not yet be decided. will he do so? I still think we'll be in the mix come the seasons' end. but that says more about the opposition than us.
next, Wigan should not drop Williams either - they should sell him! I honestly don't think any coach at wigan will get what we saw potential in 2 or 3 years ago. I've heard a lot about him away from these forums such as very bad habits with money; he's happy to pi$$ it up the wall whichever way he does but doesn't earn it on the pitch. yesterday he didn't just look inneffective, he looked careless, lethargic and unconcerned. he didn't even get himself into positions for the 5th tackle on numerous occasions. don't blame the forwards as they have been decent enough this year barring the last two games yet he still hasn't shone above anyone else. don't come at me with stats either, they don't reflect impact and performance and it won't change my opinion and by the looks of things a lot of others' opinions now. why was he a better player when smith was at his side? because smith did the right things and allowed Williams to shine? nope. because he wasn't on megabucks back then thinking he can do what he pleases now.
Tomkins (joel) must be sold too. he is chewing up way too much cap space for his performances (effort aside on occasion). another example of wane bringing his mates back. to be honest I like him, he is versatile but not worth what he is on (i'd imagine he is on a decent wedge of course).
finally, the fact that bateman played like 10 men yesterday says to me he is off at the end of the season; he put his blood into that game and the emotion showed at full time. was that a way of identifying that was his last chance of CC silverware with wigan? to me, that's a yes. so why have wigan stalled so much on him? again mismanagement. lettign the sam and Ollie saga's run on way too long did it for me. wigan should have thrown the whole cap at him to keep him here even if it mean losing the likes of isa and Ollie. and why didn't we have enough cap space to do this after MM and FPN left? that was even before we knew ollie wanted off or a better contract, before we knew sam was off, so there was space or should have been. mismanagement is the only answer. again, bad move by wigan for me regards bateman. i'd be very surprised to hear he is staying now. with lockers probably retiring at the end of this season he should have been an absolute must to tie down.
now i've ranted, what about Radford as our next coach?! he looked gutted at full time. ha!!'"
When you say don’t come at me with stats, is that because they are factual and take any sense of opinion out of it. That’s like saying we’re the best supported club in the world of sport, oh but don’t come at me with attendance figures. Is Williams playing well this season? No I don’t really think he is. Does he have a seven who allows him to play the game we know he has? No he doesn’t. Yet Powell the least effective seven I have ever seen, gets away free cause he put in a good stint when Micky was injured. And as for what Williams spends his money on you have got to be joking. He’s a young lad earning a lot of money, of course he’s going to buy things! So long as it’s not a load of coke, it’s absolutely none of our business and has no impact on his ability as a player.
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| Quote: WARRIOR5 "You lost me when you said “I've heard a lot about him away from these forums such as very bad habits with money; he's happy to pi$$ it up the wall whichever way he does but doesn't earn it on the pitch”. I really really don’t get how this is in any way relevant and just emphasises you have something against the lad. I feel he’s become a lot of people’s scapegoat because he’s a young lad who’s doing very well for himself - so of course we should knock him.
Have to agree to disagree on stats. I’m a fair believer that they just give a factual representation of what someone has done, you just can’t argue with them. Stats take any bias or personal feeling toward an individual or team and chuck it out the window.
Powell is bringing absolutely nothing for me and that’s not his fault, I just don’t think he’s a super league standard 7. We need a seven who can take control so that Williams can use his running game, simple.'"
it has everything to do with my concerns... think about it, is name was on every young lads shirt, playing like a true potential wigan legend and was setting the English game on fire. signs a marque contract, form quickly drops and hasn't recovered since. all while the REPORTs I've read (which have already been brought up and discussed on here might I add) state he has been seen getting rather shirty doing something with money a lot of us don't have the luxury of doing. i'm not saying I believe those rumours at all, but it would be telling and it makes sense to me knowing what that kind of off the field behaviour can do to you mentally. so yes i'm concerned that this may be one of the reasons for his lack of form. he isn't my scapegoat, I've been on about him for about a year now. if you are on marque money you should be delivering. whether tha stats say it or not, if you have watched Williams of late and honestly think he is making the effort he should be then you are very easily pleased. again, had he still been on a more youth-orientated contract I probably wouldn't be too worried. in fact i'm actually concerned for him and the club. if the club can't or won't help him then we need to think whether his marquee status is worthwhile.
again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all.
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| All I can say about George Williams is that I've seen him and his mates in my local a few times, but he has always appeared friendly and was only drinking soft drinks.
But yeah, his form has gone backwards and I can't see how Shaun Wane is to blame for that.
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| "again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all."
This is a very poor argument against stats. How do you know the majority of people who didn't vote wouldn't also have voted Tory? The fact is, the Tories are in because the majority of people who voted (according to our system) voted Tory. Any other statistic or 'what if' is completely irrelevant.
Statistics tell the full story if used in the correct way. Unfortunately they very often aren't and people attempt 'spin by omission'. I think this is what you're alluding to here.
As to George, his stats do tell the story. However they don't take into account expectation, much as Sam's tenure in the NRL is often coloured by the expectation his enormous wage put on him. It all comes down to what you expect from a marquee player as you say. On that score, I think it fair to expect more than we're currently getting.
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| Quote: Phuzzy ""again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all."
This is a very poor argument against stats. How do you know the majority of people who didn't vote wouldn't also have voted Tory? The fact is, the Tories are in because the majority of people who voted (according to our system) voted Tory. Any other statistic or 'what if' is completely irrelevant.
Statistics tell the full story if used in the correct way. Unfortunately they very often aren't and people attempt 'spin by omission'. I think this is what you're alluding to here.
As to George, his stats do tell the story. However they don't take into account expectation, much as Sam's tenure in the NRL is often coloured by the expectation his enormous wage put on him. It all comes down to what you expect from a marquee player as you say. On that score, I think it fair to expect more than we're currently getting.'"
that is entirely my point, the stats have shown what they are able to show, i.e. what can be measured, but they do not show you the entire equation. they can show you his metres gained, how many tries he has to his name but they do not show you many other elements such as desire, enthusiasm, fitness, quick-thinking, decisive plays etc.
I actually agree with you all here it does sound like i'm griping on about him a little too much but I must once again point out, considering the mess wigan is in as we all now know, a player of marquee status needs to be doing more. my concern is that his off the field habits may be having a detrimental effect - that is not a criticism, i'm genuinely wondering if that is partially to blame fo his apparent lack of form.
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| Quote: WiganBurt "that is entirely my point, the stats have shown what they are able to show, i.e. what can be measured, but they do not show you the entire equation. they can show you his metres gained, how many tries he has to his name but they do not show you many other elements such as desire, enthusiasm, fitness, quick-thinking, decisive plays etc.
I actually agree with you all here it does sound like i'm griping on about him a little too much but I must once again point out, considering the mess wigan is in as we all now know, a player of marquee status needs to be doing more. my concern is that his off the field habits may be having a detrimental effect - that is not a criticism, i'm genuinely wondering if that is partially to blame fo his apparent lack of form.'"
I totally get where you're coming from WB. I just have this thing about people dismissing stats because sometimes they are used incorrectly. It's like saying words can be used to lie therefore all words must be lies or pictures can be doctored therefore all pictures cannot be real. I often ask people on here to justify an opinion by backing it up with something concrete and whenever they can't they invariably use some variant of the 'stats can be used to prove anything' line when, in actuality, they can't unless you're using them incorrectly. Just put it down to a bee in my bonnet mate!
As for George I tend to agree with you, especially in relation to his marquee status. It puts an enormous expectation on a player, especially a young one, and it's not a foregone conclusion that every personality type is able to handle it. George seems like a quiet lad and maybe this has come too early for him. He wasn't the finished article anyway and perhaps needed to hone his skills a little more 'under the radar' so to speak. I wouldn't agree that he isn't trying though. On occasion it's seemed to me that perhaps he's trying too hard and it's stifling any freedom in his game.
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