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Player Coach | 555 | Wigan Warriors |
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| So many of us can't help thinking the try would have been disallowed if a Wigan player had done exactly the same as McGuire did....! That is the crux of the whole matter.
I find it amazing that apparently the RFL apologised to Wigan and SW after the Headingley game when despite 2 knock-ons by Sinfield both tries were awarded by the VR, Bentham. That there was a case of déjà vu just over a month later with an even more blatant knock-on really sticks in the craw.
Claims that 3 professional referees deemed it not to have been a knock-on and awarded the try do not alter the fact (as already stated) that the vast majority of people with a knowledge of rugby (not just Wigan fans) would have disallowed the try for a blatant knock-on!
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| Quote Fames="Fames"Claims that 3 professional referees deemed it not to have been a knock-on and awarded the try do not alter the fact (as already stated) that the vast majority of people with a knowledge of rugby (not just Wigan fans) would have disallowed the try for a blatant knock-on!'"
They may know rugby but do they know the rules? If, for example, McGuire had fumbled the ball then palmed it backwards/sideways without it having hit the ground or an opponent then I doubt many would call it as a knock-on (unless in their view it had gone forward and not sideways). Is it different if it hits his leg? I'm not claiming to know the answer although there must be one.
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Player Coach | 555 | Wigan Warriors |
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| If he palmed the ball backwards before it hit the ground it would be ok. In this case, though, the ball came forwards out of McGuires's hands and then involuntarily hit his thigh. From what I understood Cummins to be saying, this "involuntary" action was the crucial fact. If he had deliberately kicked the ball, it would have been ok but he didn't. Definite knock-on! As the vast majority agree.
I still don't know how 2 professional referees could come to this decision. I have my theories, but....
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| Quote Fames="Fames"If he palmed the ball backwards before it hit the ground it would be ok. In this case, though, the ball came forwards out of McGuires's hands and then involuntarily hit his thigh. From what I understood Cummins to be saying, this "involuntary" action was the crucial fact. If he had deliberately kicked the ball, it would have been ok but he didn't. Definite knock-on! As the vast majority agree.
I still don't know how 2 professional referees could come to this decision. I have my theories, but....'"
From the rules:
"Accidental 2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed.
Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball"
Their definition of a kick is to impart movement with any part of the leg from knee to toe but excluding the heel.
Looks like you're right unless they deemed the ball to have hit the knee.
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International Star | 4239 | No Team Selected |
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| All the professional referees agree it was a try.
Makes up for the seemingley endless 50/50 video ref decisions that have denied leeds against wigan in recent years. Mcguire ''drop kick'' try 2011, mcguire obstruction try MM 2013, Joel Moon phantom knock on MM 2014, Mcguire obstruction try 2015 (which was confirmed should have stood after by the ref's).
Basically anytime in the last 5 years there's been a 50/50 video ref call in a game against wigan, it's gone wigan's way. In all those games less than 6 points winning margin.
Poor old downtrodden hard done by wigan.
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Player Coach | 3003 | Wigan Warriors |
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| Quote FlexWheeler="FlexWheeler"All the professional referees agree it was a try.
Makes up for the seemingley endless 50/50 video ref decisions that have denied leeds against wigan in recent years. Mcguire ''drop kick'' try 2011, mcguire obstruction try MM 2013, Joel Moon phantom knock on MM 2014, Mcguire obstruction try 2015 (which was confirmed should have stood after by the ref's).
Basically anytime in the last 5 years there's been a 50/50 video ref call in a game against wigan, it's gone wigan's way. In all those games less than 6 points winning margin.
Poor old downtrodden hard done by wigan.'"
Where have you been me owd stocking top?
No soccer on toneet in Merseyside?
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Club Coach | 10530 | Rochdale Hornets |
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| Quote Itchy Arsenal="Itchy Arsenal"Where have you been me owd stocking top?
No soccer on toneet in Merseyside?'"
He's a Leeds fan, with an infatuation with the 'S' 
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Player Coach | 3003 | Wigan Warriors |
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| Quote Charlie Sheen="Charlie Sheen"He's a Leeds fan, with an infatuation with the 'S'
'"
Well his input is as useful as a tackle in soccer. Non existent.
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International Board Member | 1606 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote Clearwing="Clearwing"
I dislike the whole VR thing full stop. But if we must have it, then there are real weaknesses surrounding the on-field decisions of try/no try. I suspect Thaler went to the VR for McGuire's try under the illusion that TV evidence would confirm or refute his on-field decision. The fact that it did neither meant that his decision stood. There's a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that Thaler had no clear idea whatsoever as to whether a knock-on had actually taken place.'"
I think this is actually the reason the ref making a decision needs to stay - as we don't have the video ref at every game, what would have happened if this incident happened in a non-televised game? The ref still wouldn't have had a clear idea, but would have been forced to make a decision in conjunction with his touch judges etc, so the outcome would have been the same - try.
By making the ref make a call - where it's a 50/50, it means the VR or lack of a VR doesn't alter the decision, the on field ref needs to make a call on the evidence he has to hand, and only if that can be proven to be wrong should it be over turned. Those who say a ref shouldn't have to 'guess' when he doesn't know for sure - what would he do in a non-televised game?
Also, by making the refs give a decision, tangible MI can be produced to see which refs get the most calls wrong, and the RFL can then work with each individual ref to find out why they got it wrong and learn from it (it could be bad positioning etc). What would be good to know is the numbers on this for the season - which ref sent the most decisions up to the VR, which ref was overturned the most/least - is there any variances based on potential team bias etc.... Using this system, there's lots of data that could be analysed - I doubt this data will be made available to the fans though.
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| Bottom line is we'd recovered from the "knock on". We had all the momentum and then chucked it away when we took the two points.
No-one to blame except us.
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Club Coach | 3479 | Leeds Rhinos |
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| It's not often anyone says this,, but FlexWheeler's right...
Quote FlexWheeler="FlexWheeler"All the professional referees agree it was a try.
Makes up for the seemingley endless 50/50 video ref decisions that have denied leeds against wigan in recent years. Mcguire ''drop kick'' try 2011, mcguire obstruction try MM 2013, Joel Moon phantom knock on MM 2014, Mcguire obstruction try 2015 (which was confirmed should have stood after by the ref's).
Basically anytime in the last 5 years there's been a 50/50 video ref call in a game against wigan, it's gone wigan's way. In all those games less than 6 points winning margin.
Poor old downtrodden hard done by wigan.'"
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