Flower let himself, the club and the fans down tonight. That will haunt him for a good while longer than the ban imo.

Unacceptable actions.

How much Wane had to play in winding him up pre match only he will know but i suspect he feels partly responsible.

In all fairness to Dave, I think the stall was set out pretty much from the first tackle. It was a tactic advocated by many Saints fans over on their board too, albeit suggesting McIllorum as the target. Fair play to Saints if it was a tactic. It worked. More fool Flower for being stupid enough to fall for it.

If Hohaia was a 17 stone prop and not a halfback he would've broken Flower's jaw.

I wonder if Nathan Brown instructed his team to do something like that.

Have you got an image of the first part of the incident, where Flower has a go at Hohaia following the kick up? Just so we get all the facts straight... I don't excuse Hohaia for this, stupid reaction but there was something to react to and it was started by Flower.

Yeah, how dare they put in a hard, fair tackle straight from kick off. Disgusting tactics that, by Saints and their coach.

How about a follow on of the punch on the floor? a still photo does not tell a story and would not be used in a defence of any incident

Can we have a bit of perspective? For Hoahia to run over and smash Flower with his forearm we should be thinking Flower must've done something pretty bad, oh wait a bit of a coming together and the bigger guy chucks him to the floor. The first punch Hoahia pretty much got what was coming to him based on years of examples of retaliation in scuffles like these. Second punch out of order, which I've not seen ANY wigan fan condone yet in the last five hours!

Ben Flower did a very stupid, very bad thing tonight. It is likely that having a head made entirely out of muscle contributed to this. It is also entirely possible that, on a rugby field at least, he's not a very nice man. He plays in the front row.

So after his inevitable ban, if you want to throw him out of your club, can we have him at Leeds please? I'm sure any fan (especially those of us who remember the 80s and early 90s fondly) would like him at their club.

Which is not to condone what he did, or to say I don't think he should cop a big ban and/or take the blame for a grand final loss.

I'm not debating how bad the first contact was, I'm saying there was something there, (deliberate and unnecessary contact), for Hohaia to react too. I'm not saying he should have reacted either, it was an over the top reaction as I have said above but I wouldn't say him being knocked out was something he had coming to him.

One thing I will say that's crept into saints game recently is this taking people out on kicks. It's there in glorious technicolor over the play off series, Jordan Turner being the main instigator. The Hoahia initial contact is minimal with Flower, certainly nothing to warrant a flying forearm smash but that seems to be glossed over. He didn't connect flush or Flower just has a better chin a la Pettybourne taking one flush from Paul Wood and carrying on. My point was anyone who has played the game at any level will understand that you get smacked in the face you're likely to see someone chuck something back regardless of their past record. Flower's not shown in my experience that he is a head case but for that second punch moment he was.