Quote: DaveO "No it did not. Once Mo, Jack Robinson, Tom Rathbone and Jack Hilton assumed control with Mo as Chairman success was rapid and consistent.
Prior to that momentous event before those four assumed control the club was run by a large committee and it was the one huge step that those four took which placed Mo at the helm. That wasn't a small step but a huge one and once taken success came very quickly.
ML was on the board in 1979, as where all the others in the the Gang of 4 - The gang of 4 did take control in 1982 but it took 3 years to assume that control - Maybe it will take 3 years for IL to turn around what has happened under Whelan's administration???? '"
Mo and the other three taking control was as significant an event in the clubs history if not more so than IL taking over from DW and Mo. Before that it was committee run club and after 1982 Mo & Co had the freedom to act.
It was a watershed and to imply as your original post did that Mo was running the club 6 years before we won the CC and 8 before the championship is just misleading.
Quote:
DaveO "There are absolutely no parallels in the way Mo chose who coached Wigan or who got signed and what has happened with Noble and the squad.
Quote: DaveO "Did I say there was?
I said the coach situation (Which Mo would have had say in) didn't go from Bamford to Lowe - There were 2 or 3 othjers in between!
I said that the Coach/Chairman or whomever decided on sigining Grgory etc did not go from Jinkin Jimmy to Andy Gregory! There were again 3 other steps inbetween!
So again, you criticise me for something I Never said! '"
'"
Yes you did. The bit you have missed off from the above is “There are many other parallels but in essence the stories the same.” How is the story the same when from 1982 Mo appointed Murphy, replaced him with Clarke and McInnes after just over two years who then won the cup? I see no parallels or similar story in the recent history of Wigan.
Quote:
DaveO "Mo and the other three members of the gang of four staged their board room coup in 1982. Wigan won its first trophy in 12 years one year later in 1983, the John Player Trophy. In 1984 the club got to Wembley and got beaten by Widnes but returned in 1985 to win it in the epic game v Hull.
Quote: DaveO "For a start we can only talk about the CC & The League as that is all that's left! Who's to say that If the JPS didn't exist back in those days we would have won anything? The revenue etc that the JPS win gave the club and the impetus it provided was a big turning point, without it would we have had the impetus to go on and win the CC 2 x years later???? '"
'"
But it did exist! It was also an important trophy and was the first trophy we won for 12 years. That is an important point because it means Mo didn’t take as long as you imply to bring what people considered success to the club.
Quote: DaveO "We'll never know but I do think that we would have, Mo was a visionary AT THAT TIME however again you choose to ignore the FACT that I am right that Mo had 3 coaches before he chose Lowe!!!!!! 3 steps not 1 Huge one!
Would Lowe have come to Wigan in 80/81/82????????? '"
Mo wasn’t in charge in 80/81 and we had two coaches appointed after 1982 before we won the cup so I am not ignoring the fact you are right because you are wrong. Bamford resigned in 1982. Murphy was appointed by Mo in 1982, was with the club for just over two years and was replaced by the Clarke/McInnes duo who brought us the cup. That is two coaching appointments from the time he took over unless you are trying to suggest Clarke and McInnes were separate appointments, which I am pretty sure you are not.
Quote: DaveO "We won the championship in 1986 that is four years after Mo assumed the reigns not eight and the world club challenge the next year.
No we didn,t! We won it in 87! '"
Sorry, the 86/87 season.
In 85/86 we won the Regal Trophy again and the Lancashire cup.
Quote: DaveO "Mo didn't assume the reigns, he was part of the 4 that took over the reigns of a club that they already had a significant say in!
See I can Nit Pick as well if you want!
Point is even if you go from the point of the gang of 4's takeover it Took 3 YEARS to win the CC and 5 Years to win the League! '"
As I said it was a watershed moment when those four took over and everyone accepts that from that point on Mo was the driving force behind Wigan. Suggesting he was running it as influentially as post 1982 pre 1982 is just pure spin. What is also significant is that there was success before the club won the CC in 1985 and in between then and winning the championship in 86/87 season.
Quote: DaveO "Bearing in mind the Larger steps that could be taken in proffessionalism, coaching, training methods etc etc are probably not available to make these days due to SC and the general access to all the latest coaching methods etc then I would say IL has as equally if not more difficult job to get over that winning line than Mo & the gang of 4 had! '"
The cub only went full time in 91/92 so what has got to do with the period in question I do not know. As to the SC the way some go on you would think it only affected Wigan and when Mo & Co took control in 1982 we were not long out of the 2nd division having played in front of crowds of 8500. IL took over a Super League club containing several international players with top facilities and supposedly a top coach already in place. He has not had to make the club attractive to a coach the calibre of Lowe because we were already a top flight club with excellent training facilities, ground a large supporter base.
Quote: DaveO "So once in control of the club it took him one year to win a trophy, three years to win the CC not six and four years not eight to win the league.
If you want to look at it that way, which IMO is not strictly correct as he already along with the others in the gang of 4 were already part of the current set up, it took him 3 years to win the CC & 5 years to win the League! '"
He wasn’t in charge as your previous post implied and he brought success within 12 months of him and the other three gaining control. We also started to sign top local players as opposed to letting other teams nick them from under our noses with Edwards being the first big step in that direction. This sort of thing did not happen in the committee years prior to 1982.
Quote: DaveO "IL has been here 20 months! If he equals Lindsay's achievements, even in your version of events, I would be more than happy.
And Yes that does mean I would wait till 2011 for a CC or 2012 for a League Tital!
Whatever it takes so that we don't jeopardize the Long term future of the club attempting short term Glory as some did recently!
Oh Yes, that was Mo as well wasn't it!
PS
Why did he not do it 2nd time round if it was That easy? '"
Why do you think it was easy the first time?
Quote: DaveO "The way he dealt with coaching appointments from 1982 onwards is well known with few coaches lasting any great length of time (not all sacked for those who assume they were) until Monie arrived.
And if BN does go this year he will have lasted as long as Murphy!
If the next bloke does 2 years he will have lasted as long as Clarke/McCinness!
Again Small Steps! '"
Not correct. Noble has been here longer than either. Murphy was here just over two years, Clarke and Mcinnes just less than two. Noble has been here about 3 and half years already and is the longest serving coach post 1982 apart from Monie in his first stint.
Quote: DaveO "What's your point?'"
The point is your take on history and what went on back then having parallels to the situation now or a similar story is fanciful.
Quote: DaveO "Your take on the clubs history is wildly inaccurate.
And your a patronising Thinks he knows it all! But I'm as close to the truth as you are! '"
You miss out significant bits of information because it suits your argument you mean.
Quote: DaveO "From 77/78 onwards I attended 95% of All games Home & Away and I can tell you I know what went on, I know it wasn't as easy or as Rosey as you like to make it out under Lindsay & The gang of 4.
I have yet to see 1 post of yours that has ever praised the coach/club/chairman without having twice as many veiled digs at that same time. '"
If you have not seen one you aren’t looking very hard.
Quote: DaveO "Are you telling me that your ONLY measure of success is the trophies on display at the end of EACH season?
Get real! '"
Get real? Why do I need to “get real” about a stance YOU have decided I hold? You are putting words into my mouth again so you can disagree with me!
Quote: DaveO "Despite not agreeing with every decision that IL (AND BN for that matter!) have made over the last couple of years I can see they have made more good ones than bad and that, in the current environment, is far better than what we had for the 3/4 season before that!
If they continue at this rate (Mainly talking about IL here BTW as I ado agree a new coach should be in charge next season, if a better one is available, before you go off on a Noble Rant!) then I would be more than happy as I don't belive as a "Club" or as a "Team" we are that far behind any others and our future is as bright as anyones given a bit of patience!'"
If they continue at this rate it will be another three years before we are a regular top four side.
When we won the Regal Trophy’s and Lancashire cup between 1982 and 87 these represented tangible bits of progress along the way to those CC and Championship wins. We don’t have those trophies now of course to measure progress but in my opinion we have not made anything like that sort of progress toward success in the major competitions in recent years compared to what happened after 1982.
Who is most responsible for this lack of progress? IMO mostly Noble as he is the one who’s team shows little improvement from 2007 to now. Is IL blameless since he has only been here for 20 months? Not IMO because he has made mistakes as well in terms of signings. Has he got everything wrong which you seem to think is my view? Of course not but I can point to several issues plenty of people agree he has not got right.
Dave
