| FORUMS > London Broncos > 7,700? Have we been mugged? |
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| Quote: wantawin "I think you are not comparing apples with apples, as a supporter of amateur football for many years now I can remember AFC starting in the Combined Counties League, every AFC away game was a bonus for the clubs in that league because of the money they made out of AFC fans attending the games.
The clubs in the lower leagues made a lot of money as AFC moved up the pyramid because of AFC fans attending away games. London broncos have been the opposite since 1997 when I first started supporting the Broncos they have gone from gates in the thousands to gates in the very low hundreds, moving to 6 new grounds over that period (including Plough Lane). Every time the club has moved we have been promised this move will be the last because we want to build a fan base.
AFC have not had the problem of moving home grounds since they were established, they made their home base Kingsmedow which is very close to Wimbledon and then moved back to Plough Lane which was where their original home ground was. With the move back to Plough Lane they are going pick up old fans who would not travel to Kingsmedow and a number of people who have since moved into the local area. Broncos are relying on picking up AFC fans and locals to the ground, this has not worked in the past after moving to 3 football grounds and 2 rugby union grounds. The gates may be swelled initially but once the novelty wears off it will be the same old same old.
I would love to see it work for AFC and the Broncos at Plough Lane, but do not build your hopes up.'"
I wasn't trying to compare the situations; they are totally different as you describe. Rather I was trying to highlight that it needs to be an event rather than just a match; that's just my opinion though.
You've highlighted something that I am ignorant of. As you say AFC Wimbledon had a "home" location and has driven most of the last 20 years. Together with how they lost the club means it is relatively easy to understand what the club means.
The Broncos are different (to me at least). Location means Fulham to me, but presumably to a Bronco fan that is little more than a location in the early days. But there has (certainly was) something bonding the supporters to the Broncos. A team representing London at the highest levels in a popular sport perhaps. I hope I'm not offending here, I guess I'm asking what is the ideal set-up and where does location fit into that. Where should the team play if money was no objective and the aim is to be a Superleague team? |
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If we could get the crowds I'd say Quins The best purpose built club rugby stadium in London so no pitch size issues. Space for kids zones, live bands etc. Reasonable public transport access and in a part of London with good pubs, restaurants for those wanting more than just rugby.
Unfortunately we seemed to burn bridges pretty spectacularly there so there's not much chance. TBH the ground was too big for us by the end. Returning with current gate levels would be horrendous.
Sub 2k gates rattling around at Charlton showed just how poor an experience it is when there are thousands of empty seats.
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| Quote: Halfdan of t'wide embrace "If we could get the crowds I'd say Quins The best purpose built club rugby stadium in London so no pitch size issues. Space for kids zones, live bands etc. Reasonable public transport access and in a part of London with good pubs, restaurants for those wanting more than just rugby.
Unfortunately we seemed to burn bridges pretty spectacularly there so there's not much chance. TBH the ground was too big for us by the end. Returning with current gate levels would be horrendous.
Sub 2k gates rattling around at Charlton showed just how poor an experience it is when there are thousands of empty seats.'"
The stoop is 100% where we should be playing. Before Hughes appointed idiots to roles they weren't qualified for as well as the insane name change followed by a dummy spit of gigantic proportions, we were on about 4k in a 14k stadium but with a decent match day experience.
As far as I can gather, the deteriation of the relationship with Quins was 100% down to us and the staff paid to make sure we were looked after.....we had a Christmas Open Day at the club in 2008 and I was asked to turn up early to clear the concourse of Dozens of empty kegs, sweep the concourse and pick up litter...all because the Landlord, who had played a game the day before 'didn't know we were having an event". They didn't know because the club didn't tell them....our attitude towards Quins was appalling, but Gus fed the "anti union" brigade and Hughes with utter nonsense so we changed our name and moved to Barnet where we shed thousands of fans.....David Hughes and Gus Mackay are the reason we find ourselves being part time and moving yet again........good luck to AFC........they deserve the 200k a year id Hughes pays no heed to the cacophony of people who have said "that's it"! |
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The Stoop had everything, lots of trains from waterloo, lots of parking, great facilites both inside the ground and outside, lots of nearby bars in Twickenham.
I really don't see more than a few hundred Dons fans coming to the games, and those probably will be attending for free as part of some Dons ST offer. Actual paying Dons fans would probably be <50. Considering you would have less than 200 paying london fans, looks like we will be hoping Bradford \ Leigh \ Fev \ Fax will bring thousands of fans to away games paying £25 per ticket to get the ground revenue.
As even if 1K dons fans show up, how many of them will be paying, and therefore getting LB some revenue to improve the squad.
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| Quote: Smithers99 "I wasn't trying to compare the situations; they are totally different as you describe. Rather I was trying to highlight that it needs to be an event rather than just a match; that's just my opinion though.
You've highlighted something that I am ignorant of. As you say AFC Wimbledon had a "home" location and has driven most of the last 20 years. Together with how they lost the club means it is relatively easy to understand what the club means.
The Broncos are different (to me at least). Location means Fulham to me, but presumably to a Bronco fan that is little more than a location in the early days. But there has (certainly was) something bonding the supporters to the Broncos. A team representing London at the highest levels in a popular sport perhaps. I hope I'm not offending here, I guess I'm asking what is the ideal set-up and where does location fit into that. Where should the team play if money was no objective and the aim is to be a Superleague team?'"
I think up until we moved to Barnet the game day was an exprience, there was a number of different food oulets, we had top singers on the pitch at half time plus mini rugby. We had bands in the bar afterwards. Brentford was my favorite ground ( a dump but it felt like home). The Stoop was the best ground we played at as it was based on rugby and the bar and hosptality facilites were second to none. |
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Quote: orangeman "
Have a look at the video on Youtube for the highlights of AFC V Portsmouth from early September. The far stand is empty, the terrace at one end is empty, the away fans at the other end is 1/4 full at best.....so even if the stand where the cameras are placed was full, they are looking at 3k maximum.
so, if only 2,700 Wimbledon fans can be bothered (I know it was a cup match) to see their side back at their spiritual home, how the hell are we going to get families from the borough to games?
5.. The papa Johns cup match video clearly shows that 50% of the stadium wasn't open to the public. It also shows that the away fans numbers 300 at best.....AGAIN...unless you've seen or read elsewhere that this isn't the case, then by all means share with the group.
.'"
Re point 5 you asked! Sticking to Youtube take a look at another video from a lady called Windie at her second ever AFC Wimbledon match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EwDn39k9MY&t=206s
Forward to 3:30. Note Windie is sitting beyond the goal line. Then pause at 3:45. Between the two “tunnels” are 1,136 away seats. Are there really only 300 Portsmouth fans there? There are a further 329 Away seats to the left of the “tunnel” that which also had Portsmouth occupation. I think the figure of 835 from Portsmouth themselves is far closer (there will be no shows plus those at the bar/toilets)
Next pause at 3:50. Not many empty seats in the only area of the ground made available to AFC Wimbledon supporters (3,264 lower tier seats I believe). Remember where Windie is seated at that point (she does seem talented at moving around the ground mind!) so most seats are in her video
The tier above has Hospitality. It was limited availability for this match, but was sold out. The empty seats in the distance are for Away fans.
Season Tickets were not valid for this match. A lot of regulars boycott the competition on principle. I’m not aware of any advertising for the match. The two stands weren’t closed due to slow sales. The closure existed at the point the tickets went on sale.
Windie was lucky to get a ticket, rarely is that approach likely to work again. There were empty seats where she sat, but her video clearly shows a crowd of around 4K in my opinion. To close for me to say 4K+ with any certainty.
A good game to illustrate the demand in Wimbledon really is there; that was not only a big crowd for Wimbledon in the Papa John’s Trophy group stage, but would also be for most clubs.
I’m not on this forum to big-up AFC Wimbledon. The opening post in this thread attempts to prove the lack of local interest in the football and is used as proof why there is little hope of support for the Broncos. Maybe there won’t be enough support, but it’s misleading to suggest it’s because there isn’t even enough interest for the football.
Rather I’m interested and excited at the prospect of watching the London Broncos. I can see there is a lot of upset over the direction of the club in recent years. If the Broncos move to Plough Lane (and I suspect it’s 50/50 they stay at Ealing) then local support will be essential. The suggestion that little more than 200 fans will continue to follow the Broncos highlights that. AFC Wimbledon fans is just an easy entry into that local support, they will need to capture other local fans also..
New fans don’t need Superleague quality. We need to be entertained and have a level of competitiveness. Whilst I suspect the potential league structure re-orgs / reduced financial distribution is going to create some mismatches, it doesn’t suggest the Broncos will be left adrift from their entire division.
The 200K fixed rent a year isn’t going to work (unless somebody at the Broncos wants to contribute it as a loss leader separate from the team’s budget). So I doubt the Broncos will play at Plough Lane whilst paying that. Either Ealing or closure; probably dependent on what contractual obligations they have with AFC Wimbledon and whether they can be renegotiated. My guess is AFC Wimbledon will compromise, but only so far as at a certain level, then they themselves will decide to withdraw the ground sharing offer. |
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Quote: orangeman "
Have a look at the video on Youtube for the highlights of AFC V Portsmouth from early September. The far stand is empty, the terrace at one end is empty, the away fans at the other end is 1/4 full at best.....so even if the stand where the cameras are placed was full, they are looking at 3k maximum.
so, if only 2,700 Wimbledon fans can be bothered (I know it was a cup match) to see their side back at their spiritual home, how the hell are we going to get families from the borough to games?
5.. The papa Johns cup match video clearly shows that 50% of the stadium wasn't open to the public. It also shows that the away fans numbers 300 at best.....AGAIN...unless you've seen or read elsewhere that this isn't the case, then by all means share with the group.
.'"
Re point 5 you asked! Sticking to Youtube take a look at another video from a lady called Windie at her second ever AFC Wimbledon match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EwDn39k9MY&t=206s
Forward to 3:30. Note Windie is sitting beyond the goal line. Then pause at 3:45. Between the two “tunnels” are 1,136 away seats. Are there really only 300 Portsmouth fans there? There are a further 329 Away seats to the left of the “tunnel” that which also had Portsmouth occupation. I think the figure of 835 from Portsmouth themselves is far closer (there will be no shows plus those at the bar/toilets)
Next pause at 3:50. Not many empty seats in the only area of the ground made available to AFC Wimbledon supporters (3,264 lower tier seats I believe). Remember where Windie is seated at that point (she does seem talented at moving around the ground mind!) so most seats are in her video
The tier above has Hospitality. It was limited availability for this match, but was sold out. The empty seats in the distance are for Away fans.
Season Tickets were not valid for this match. A lot of regulars boycott the competition on principle. I’m not aware of any advertising for the match. The two stands weren’t closed due to slow sales. The closure existed at the point the tickets went on sale.
Windie was lucky to get a ticket, rarely is that approach likely to work again. There were empty seats where she sat, but her video clearly shows a crowd of around 4K in my opinion. To close for me to say 4K+ with any certainty.
A good game to illustrate the demand in Wimbledon really is there; that was not only a big crowd for Wimbledon in the Papa John’s Trophy group stage, but would also be for most clubs.
I’m not on this forum to big-up AFC Wimbledon. The opening post in this thread attempts to prove the lack of local interest in the football and is used as proof why there is little hope of support for the Broncos. Maybe there won’t be enough support, but it’s misleading to suggest it’s because there isn’t even enough interest for the football.
Rather I’m interested and excited at the prospect of watching the London Broncos. I can see there is a lot of upset over the direction of the club in recent years. If the Broncos move to Plough Lane (and I suspect it’s 50/50 they stay at Ealing) then local support will be essential. The suggestion that little more than 200 fans will continue to follow the Broncos highlights that. AFC Wimbledon fans is just an easy entry into that local support, they will need to capture other local fans also..
New fans don’t need Superleague quality. We need to be entertained and have a level of competitiveness. Whilst I suspect the potential league structure re-orgs / reduced financial distribution is going to create some mismatches, it doesn’t suggest the Broncos will be left adrift from their entire division.
The 200K fixed rent a year isn’t going to work (unless somebody at the Broncos wants to contribute it as a loss leader separate from the team’s budget). So I doubt the Broncos will play at Plough Lane whilst paying that. Either Ealing or closure; probably dependent on what contractual obligations they have with AFC Wimbledon and whether they can be renegotiated. My guess is AFC Wimbledon will compromise, but only so far as at a certain level, then they themselves will decide to withdraw the ground sharing offer. | |
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[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae-HziERgfk:p2kbb0c5]Gus Mackay we salute you!![/url:p2kbb0c5]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1428.png |
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| Quote: Smithers99 "New fans don’t need Superleague quality. We need to be entertained and have a level of competitiveness.'"
This is key. If the move to PL was being combined with improvements to the squad and a return to the days when the club made a concerted effort to build the match day experience then we might stand a small chance of making a success of it. |
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| Quote: jbuzza "This is key. If the move to PL was being combined with improvements to the squad and a return to the days when the club made a concerted effort to build the match day experience then we might stand a small chance of making a success of it.'"
In an ideal world, a new squad, a new venue, a new pre and post match offering, a new structured plan to attract new fans, families and lapsed fans....all overseen by either new and aptly qualified people or at least somebody with a passion for the game of rugby league.....
...alas, we have hockey man and shirt-sale boy, who between them have managed to shed 90% of the few fans we had at the end of 2019. |
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| Quote: Smithers99 "Re point 5 you asked! Sticking to Youtube take a look at another video from a lady called Windie at her second ever AFC Wimbledon match.
The new fans might not want super league quality (which is debatable) but the club does, if you go back to the days we were in super league and had a good team the gates were 5000 to 6000 when we played St Helens, Leeds, Wigan and Bradford until they went bust. The crowds were good with travling away supporters who used to make a weekend of the away game. You will never acheive anywhere near those gates playing in the champioship. As my good old mate Orangeman will tell you need a gate of 5000 to break even.
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@Smithers99, @MashTun
Just want to make something clear, nobody on the forum has any problem with Wimbledon, your a very well run club, a superb stadium and its largely thanks to the Dons marketing that we sold the 2K tickets we did, and any Wimbledon fans who attend are very welcome, and we really hope you continue to come.
But we have been here before (multiple times), and for this to work requires the Broncos Leadership and Management to also step up to the plate, and on this we have zero expectation that they will be able to get anywhere close to delivering (all you have to do is look at the first game, Wimbledon helped drive the attendance over 2K, but did the Broncos actually provide anything towards the match day experience nope, no program, no branding, no kids zone, no entertainment outside of the match, and the squad who was picked had lost the game after 10 mins hence no product on the pitch either.
Will they turn this around and have some kids entertainment, some half time activities, some form of branding, some form of profiles of the London club and players, mascots back (Buck and Dusty) for Whitehaven. I'm not holding my breath
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[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae-HziERgfk:p2kbb0c5]Gus Mackay we salute you!![/url:p2kbb0c5]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1428.png |
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| Quote: crashmon "Will they turn this around and have some kids entertainment, some half time activities, some form of branding, some form of profiles of the London club and players, mascots back (Buck and Dusty) for Whitehaven. I'm not holding my breath'"
Not even Buck and Dusty. Jeez, the lazy s. |
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Hi crashmon,
Not at all. I've felt very welcomed by everybody on this forum. I can also feel the scars that have built up over the years. Even if the running of the club was perfect, I can't imagine the inconvenience of moving around London multiple times as a supporter.
I'm also conscious that me referring to AFC Wimbledon too often is going to indirectly grate on people. There is much wrong with that football club, so it's certainly not all rosier over there.
It is hard to see where the Broncos go from here if it's not a success in Wimbledon simply because it does feel an element of rock bottom by having to go part-time and likely finishing lower than at anytime in their history.
It's a tricky sport when teams are unevenly matched. Basketball is similar in that it can be so one sided. A sport such as football where their can be limited scores can keep the result on edge even with one team dominating. It's generally not too hard to follow a team near the bottom of a league (ten in eleven seasons for AFC Wimbledon probably!). It's the matches against the likes of Featherstone and Leigh which are going to be a tough watch, especially for somebody at their first match.
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As someone from North London the move to South West London was neither convenient or welcome for me personally but, by fault or design, a relaunch was needed and a move to Wimbledon was felt a strong choice. I can see the force of that argument. The issue for me, and I think quite a few others, has mainly been the total disconnect between investing heavily in a relaunch (rent to the Dons and 2 training ground providers, advertising) whilst appearing to reduce investment in the playing and non playing staff by an unprecedented level. Not only do we risk undoing all the good work (and wasting good will with Dons supporters and upfront advertising campaigns) by having a non competitive side but we don’t seem to even have the back room staff to deliver all the little day to day things like marketing, match day experience, fan engagement, merchandise even things as micro as having mascots and keeping the website up to date. A side that is liable to be comfortably beaten by many of its competitors is not likely to maximise its potential. It’s easy to criticise and it’s easy to spend other people’s money but the big spend on the ground had to, in some way, be balanced by some kind of spend on playing and back room operation. The consensus on this forum appeared to be that the 1st 3 home games were a good guide to where we are: 3 reasonable sides but ones we would historically beat. If we lose all 3 and the games are over at half time as per Widnes: something would need to be done or this could get messy. The answer isn’t to keep recruiting from Skolars, who perennially come one from last in the league below and frankly adverts can draw people in but they stay because they enjoy the experience and much of that is about what is dished up on field. At a time where we all want to be optimistic there is a real threat we might end up in a relegation dog fight and an unintended consequence of our recruitment policy may well be that only the chaos at WWR and the obvious challenges of Cornwall working out will stop Skolars from losing every week and finishing bottom of the pile.
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DH needs to get rid of the monkey and possibly the lobster and apologise to all the fans which have been told not to come back because these two did not want listen to very helpful constructive advice of years long fans. Most of the fans they have barred are longstanding fans with anything from 17 to 27 years standing. Also apologise to fans that have been removed from the forum etc. Until these two go and new knowledgeable people are appointed the club will never prosper
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| Quote: itsmeagain "DH needs to get rid of the monkey and possibly the lobster and apologise to all the fans which have been told not to come back because these two did not want listen to very helpful constructive advice of years long fans. Most of the fans they have barred are longstanding fans with anything from 17 to 27 years standing. Also apologise to fans that have been removed from the forum etc. Until these two go and new knowledgeable people are appointed the club will never prosper'"
David Hughes doesn't take advice from anyone. It's his club and in his eyes he and his appointed staff can do no wrong......when we were relegated it was 100% down to his reaction to a hammering by Wigan in the cup, when we ruined the relationship with quins it was 100% down to his employing inept CEOs, when we opted to look away from Ealing it was again down to a breakdown in he relationship with the landlords.....
Brentford, Harlequins and even Ealing Trailfinders all seem to be doing fine without us  |
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