Again we list that game!!!! Why do we give so many penalties away in a game nothing at all to do with the ref, but down to the fact we always end up defending inn the back foot so get pinged for holding down offside and high shots are the result of being off balance going backwards in the tackle. Difference between the 2 shoulder charges one was seen as just that,the other was seen as late.
We play silly rugby with needless penalties.
In attack we generally end up being dominated, you will never win a penalty from that!!!!
Saying the ref was inconsistent is clutching at straws for a poor performance

NB, I'll take issue with the Refs are innocent aspect. Nothing specific about today's game as didn't see it. However Yes they give what they see, I just wonder if they are just like the players and switch off sometimes. Also just like players they are inconsistent in interpretation. Quite a few examples recently in terms of lying on and what is acceptable for team A while team B is allowed slightly less leeway. We tend to be team B patrticularly when we do start to dominate.

Obviously this isn't all the time but it happens. And yes sometimes they do guess. In a game I'll make an assertion the Ref is wrong (loudly for effect) but privately I'll admit they are right most of the time. However I do believe we get less of the rub of the green.

In the wider world the linesman (refs assistant) whatever they are called nowadays, fact they use comms rather than signals doesn't help the world. In the good ole days you could see the touchy making their point. Nowadays it's a quiet word in the ear that is either agreed or ignored. Problem is fans can't see it. The immediate impact is the refs team are ignoring things, yet in reality they aren't.

I do think and this is more in the last few years we have been poor in tackle technique and dominating it thus ending up slowing things down. However even when competent (those years are getting distant) we got pinged. We do over the last 20 years in SL (probably more) end up on the wrong end of the count. That has been proven and guess what we've had some experienced teams out there over that time frame who aren't slow to get off etc.. Is it a southern culture at the club or just how we are treated as an outsider? Strangely Catalan suffer similarly.

Oh and suggesting one shoulder charge was seen as that and one wasn't is perhaps a point about interpretation. It doesn't actually matter whether the interpretation is correct but that it is an interpretation. It remains open to debate.

SR can't disagree with any of yr points. Late hit on a player it's not interpretation it's a judgement call. In the refs view could the player have pulled out, in child's view the second one he could have hence it being seen as late. Without doubt both were shoulder charges.
Comms actually makes it easier for the team, ref can keep his eyes on play rather than having to look towards his touchline for the signal.
And actually I am the same as you, I do shout encouragement to the ref when I am a fan, obviously when I am somewhere that no one knows me

The difference between comms and signals, is if the TJ calls fwd pass and the ref is happy it wasn't, it just gives spectators ammunition to abuse the TJ

I look forward to seeing how Toronto are refereed next season. They are intentionally a physical team. They use all the tricks both fair and unfair. Look at Jack Bussey, what a dirty player he has been become. The pressure will been the referees to perform. Toronto cannot be allowed to get away with things that others are not.

Not sure why you think they would, Leigh used to get pinged a fair bit when they tried it, there first real go at promotion backfired because rowley tried the dirty tactics, the SL teams just played rugby and took the penalties they gave away. The year they got promoted they cleaned up there game.

Good to see James child making good positive decisions, late hit on fages to the head, straight red

Good to see James child making good positive decisions, elbow to head by Walmsley, play the ball.

There was no elbow to the head give over man.

There is a massive difference with a all carrier leading with a raised elbow, and the walmsley arm contacting the head of a tackler.

Why put it on report post VR review if there was no elbow?

An deliberate elbow to the head whether with or without the ball is a deliberate elbow to the head in a sport where head protection is currently the priority.

The ref can put something on report if something happens that he or the TJ did not see fully, a possibility that there "might" have been something is not a reason to penalise, hence why something's go on report, If am wrong fine, but I would bet heavily that will come back as no charge, he didn't lift the arm to use the elbow, he didn't try to strike with the elbow. You are permitted to fend with the hand and you can use the forearm as long as it's as a buffer not in a striking motion.
As for headguards, think it's been proven they make very little difference to the extent of head trauma in the game, it's the brain inside the skull moving that causes damage, headguards don't stop that

Head guards aren't the answer hence why boxing have got rid of them.

A fend is typical performed with a straight ish arm that wouldn't typically result in an elbow to the face should it be mis timed.

I get the sense he did try to buffer him away but landed with an elbow. Is that any different to a tackle to the chest that finished around the head-Thats a penalty. Im not sure intent matters, technique is equally as important.

WQ it's an interesting view, players at kids age are taught to carry the gal both hands with ball against the chest and to use the forearms as bumpers, if a tackler comes in low and hits the elbows that's is the tacklers fault. Hand off in the face is not actually illegal, but it's contact with the head, penalty? Tacklers very often push down on the back of a players head when standing up, penalty? Running player with the ball uses his arm to fend a tackler, tackler makes contact with the elbow, penalty? Unless there is intent in most of those it's seen as no penalty. At the level I ref at players using the head as a lever on the ground I penalise.
The tackler hitting the shoulder and riding up hitting the head is a penalty because the RFL have decided it is. Then again why tackle round the shoulders? Hit beneath the ball carrying arm or around the arm, shoulder is poor technique on the tackler

And before you say it, yes the rules should be the same across the sport, how they are applied at different levels can differ. For me every scrum last night was a penalty, loose fwds never bind, at community level I warn em then ping em they soon learn.
Sadly in the top flight dissent is largely ignored! That's why Danny brough got away with so much, at lower levels i for one certainly deal with it early, but like football what kids see at top level on TV helps no one.
One of my fave calls at the scrum is a reminder they need to bind, they don't play for wigan