Going on this principle, does that mean we all have to agree Tony Smith is a rubbish coach, because he failed to get the best squad in the league to either final ?

Leeds have a very good squad. Quite possibly the best after Warrington's, and the players have more playoffs and Grand Final winning experience than any other squad. They're a very good side. Richard Agar could probably coach them to a final. Rammond's post isn't inaccurate - they've underperformed this year in terms of wins/losses relative to the quality of their squad.

Put it this way, McDermott's team is at Old Trafford, and Tony Smith and Michael Maguire will be watching as spectators, but I know which two of those three I'd rather have coaching Saints if Royce Simmons fell under a bus.

Simple facts. People jumped on McDermotts back when he coached us. People wanted him out. Then they had a good laugh when Leeds lost a couple of games. And somehow he has got his team to the two biggest games of the season. Leeds fans are delighted. Our "fans" are left bringing up irrelevant facts in a desperate attempt to bring him down more and justify their ignorant comments. As someone said, credit where credit is due, McDermott has done a fantastic job with a squad that was written off half way through the season.

The best squad after Warrington? Trolololol.

1. You shouldn't misquote. I said "quite possibly" the best squad after Warrington's - it's arguable, but it's a fair argument. Leeds' threequarters are the best in the league after Wire's (possibly better than Wire's). Their forward pack is a match for any of the top teams. Only in the halves have they looked weaker than the other big teams this year. Which makes their win/loss record in the competition look particularly poor.

2. You're basing your assessment of McDermott's coaching ability on the fact that he got to Wembley and Old Trafford. In the last 5 years, Catalans, Hull and Huddersfield all got to the CC Final, but it didn't make them good teams, or their coaches particularly impressive. Saints got to the Grand Final last year under Mick Potter, who many Saints fans will tell you was our worst coach of the summer era, and who was duly asked to find another job - where he's hardly set the world on fire. He did that because he had the remnants of a very good team which knew how to win play-off games. Even some of his old players have now publicly criticised his coaching.

3. You're claiming that other people are bringing up irrelevant facts. Yet your whole post is basically an attempt to say that because Leeds have got to Wembley and Old Trafford this year, your view that the coach of Harlequins is pants must be accurate. If you think that's a reasonable argument, then it explains much about your judgement, I guess.

McDermott had years in London with far stronger squads than 2011's vintage, and achieved nothing. He's been at Leeds one year, and in terms of wins and losses, they've had their worst year for 5 years, despite having one of the best squads in the competition. Maybe Leeds will win the GF. Maybe they won't. But the idea that somehow he's a coaching guru whose absence is the cause of Quins' problems this year is at best doubtful, and at worst laughable.

Go back to the Saints forum or the Rob Powell Supporters Club forum then, we all know you have a soft spot for him for obvious reasons, your opinions unfortunately cannot be considered unbiased.

Oh and I look forward to you heading over to the Leeds forum to lambast all of those delighted with their coach.

I will have small wager with anyone that this time next year leeds will not be in the Grand final and it has little to do with their coach. Mac has done well at leeds and the hard work for Him will begin in February.

Listy why has it taken you this long to state something we've all known for years. He is a typical student who manipulates statistics to form an argument-All he is missing from his posts is a reference list at the end.

Maybe he should change his name to Harvard

Roy-This is a statement to provoke response, right. I know you use possibly and quite possibly as copouts but could you name Leeds 2 centres.

Exactly. They play Ablett there who is a second rower ffs

Compared to Wire who have 4 international centres to choose from added to 2 international halves (Accepted Briers played for Wales!) and a highly rated full back (previous MOS)

Leeds' back 5 in their semi win were : Webb, Jones-Bishop, Hardaker, Ablett and Hall. That's probably a better line-up that the Saints back 5, and I say that as a Saints fan. Webb is currently the form fullback after Tomkins. Jones-Bishop would start ahead of any winger at Saints, and probably ahead of Riley at Wire. Hall is the best winger in the competition at present, although you could argue Monaghan was better early in the season. Hardaker and Ablett are better than Joel Tomkins at Wigan, although I think Atkins and Bridge have been on better form than them, they were well-matched this weekend.

As for Ablett playing in the centres; in the first instance Wigan also play a second row in the centres - Joel Tomkins, and Saints also use Soliola interchangably, as they used to do with Gilmour and Huddersfield still do on occasion, so I don't see why Ablett being a second row in any way reduces the quality of the Leeds back line. I'd rather have him at centre than any of the centres from most of the teams in SL. In the second instance, it seems inconsistent to me to scoff at the folly of playing a second-row in the centres, while at the same time praising the coach who made that decision. If you think that second-rowers shouldn't ever be played at centre, then I would merely disagree, and point out that they have been for decades, under all sorts of coaches and at all sorts of clubs.

You also seem to miss my point about the halves. You do know that halves are not three-quarters ? Which is why I referred to the threequarters being comparable, but noted that Leeds' halfbacks were not comprable to Wire's. Wire's halfbacks have been far and away the most effective halfback combination this year, which is one of the reasons why they finished top.

So on this thread, so far, the guy who is accusing others of having no knowledge of rugby league is scoffing at a tactic which is not only commonly used at all levels of the game, but is also effective, and has been for decades, while his main supporter can't seem to tell the difference between halves and threequarters ?

I think before throwing around accusations of people not understanding the game, you both might want to check what you write first.

Happy to help.

Still laughing at McDermott being labelled a "lucky manager", pmsl. Is Royce Simmons a lucky manager too?

Arhh got it Roy lets play on words if we cant use possibly as a copout. To your credit and in my defence I did read three quarters as backs but your knew that anyway didnt you. That said it did strengthen a very weak comeback.

Its interesting that all of your comparisons use the weakness from one or another of the top clubs-I suspect this does strengthen your argument if the reader knows little about the game