Which ever way you look at it, the home crowd numbers this weekend for Quins RL and Crusaders RL stand in stark relief.

Wrexham is a relatively small town in Flintshire, whereas London, in contrast, is a major conurbation with one of the largest city populations anywhere in the world - complete with a fair-sized population of Antipodeans who've grown up watching rugby league down under.

I so wish David Hughes would at last accept that the only thing really standing in the way of the development of Qunis RL is Brian McDermott.

Are there any readers of this forum who still believe Brian Mc Dermott is the right coach for the club?

I back Brian because he's a relative but he's in a real spot at the minute. It's a real chicken and egg situation for Quins. Crowds aren't going to come without success, success isn't going to come without revenue from crowds to invest in playing personnel.

Quins are in the wrong place IMO. Being named after the Harlequins targets them at the wrong demographic really and I think that's a big part of it. Having your home in a union stronghold and carrying a union emblem isn't going to convert union supporters and may put off potential supporters who have no interest in union. Even the strongest marketing team in the world is going to struggle, never mind Quins'. Crusaders are a novelty in the right place at the right time (floundering football club, not a strong RU support, not far from the heartlands, and enough gimmicks to draw in the crowds even when Catalans come to call) so they have potential to get people through the turnstiles.

Now, Brian doesn't seem to be getting the best out of what is a threadbare squad. He's having to play some young Londoners due to key injuries, which is great on the surface but is the quality of junior set up down there going to match the likes of Wigan and Leeds and are they going to step up as easily? We've seen that Brian can get results but that's obviously not happening down so perhaps a coach who can get the youngsters through as well would help. It seems like Bri doesn't have any plan B. But the problems don't all lie with him. Who's your conditioning coach? What's the junior set up like and who's in charge? Does the entire set up need replacing? More importantly, could rebranding and relocating, backed with strong market research, give Quins a better lease of life? This guise of the London club doesn't cut it for me.

And the club's lack of identity, and the location, and finances, and terrible administration, and the history of the club. But other than that, yeah McDermott is the sole problem with Quins RL.

Edit: I replied in haste and hadn't read Captain Library's post, but he's got it absolutely spot on. As an outsider, it's plain to see why Quins can't attract crowds, and it is nothing to do with the rugby side of things (although that isn't helping ATM).

I'm wary about comparisons with the Crusaders as their situation more resembles ours in our first season at Craven Cottage. However, as regular members of this forum are depressingly aware, I don't personally believe that there is a market for a SL club within the M25. If the club is to remain in London then it will have to accept that its proper level is the Co- Op leagues at a smaller ground otherwise it must move outside the M25. Oxford has been suggested, but whether the City of Dreaming Spires would take to RL is another matter!

East End of london location would be a interesting move

As discussed yesterday with a few people, the Crusaders will be playing infront of 3000 crowds in no time.

Although the stoop is a cracking ground and a good set up and fan friendly, do you seriously not think bein located under the shadow of union HQ, and being called harlequins has a detrimental effect on attracting rugby league fans? Perfect example is when i tell ppl im going to the rugby at twickenham they automatically presume im going to watch rugby union. Surely the club needs its own identity?

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. No no no no no!!

Is that supposed to be confidence building or just wishful thinking? I would not wish on any club the way we have fell away supporter wise! - but that is me thinking and hoping positive!

Is that when they turn up at the stoop?

What is the problem then, on-field performance? Crowds were pathetic even when the team was doing well and playing exciting stuff. Harlequins RL can't give tickets away at the moment. I don't know how you can possibly say that a lack of identity is not hurting the club.

Crowds were low but at least we had a basis of building a base of supporters then. Next to nothing was done in marketing the club - now, the club are at least trying to do things, but its tricky to sell such a poor product.

Now, the on field performances have been so bad lately that even "die hard" supporters have been beginning to give the games a miss through lack of motivation.

I don't know what evidence you can present that proves that the identity is hurting the club - the number of people that stopped following the club purely because of the identity change is offset by the small number of supporters we have picked up from the Union side of the club. It makes no difference what we are called when a trip to the Stoop to watch a poor game of rugby league is so unappealling.

Spot on Dave.

I think our home performances are the biggest problem we have in respect of building our crowds.

We have only won 16 home games in the last three seasons and in the last ten years, we've only won our first home game once (2005). Not good enough, I'm afraid.

We've really got to start winning our home games as only the most dedicated supporters will keep coming to watch a losing team (I will be attending win or lose, but I don't bring mates along these days, as I don't want to put them off TGG).