The 'Many' police officers that retired after the incident (if two were many? 1 over 12 months later) both had over 30 years service so were at retirement stage anyway.
And I would read the Taylor report again for accuracy and not paraphrase the results.

Excellent post mutt1. I can understand the frustration and anger of the families of the 96, and the fact that they want someone to blame. However, in my opinion, there is no one person/organisation to blame - the tragedy occured as a result of a number of awful things happening at the same time, leading to a terrible outcome. However, going back to the original point of this thread, I think the link below illustrates perfectly why Liverpool 'fans' were wholly wrong to boo Burnham yesterday. msn.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 87,00.html The service should've been a respectful memorial, not a chance to boo the one MP who simply didn't deserve it.

Excellent post mutt1. I can understand the frustration and anger of the families of the 96, and the fact that they want someone to blame. However, in my opinion, there is no one person/organisation to blame - the tragedy occured as a result of a number of awful things happening at the same time, leading to a terrible outcome. However, going back to the original point of this thread, I think the link below illustrates perfectly why Liverpool 'fans' were wholly wrong to boo Burnham yesterday. msn.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 87,00.html The service should've been a respectful memorial, not a chance to boo the one MP who simply didn't deserve it.

There were many many factors to blame for what happened.
There isn't just one person, or bunch of people to blame. There are many.
But there are many facts to consider. The fact that that end of the ground didn't have a safety certificate is one of them.
The families want justice as the official enquiry wouldn't look at anything that happened after 3.19pm. This is clearly incorrect and wrong, it says there was no one alive after that time, when there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.
The families want closure, they want peace of mind, and for this they should be supported. I will say though, is that this isn't helped by barracking the man who is trying to get it reopened.
Oh and what happened in 1989 cannot and should never be compared to what happened in 1985. The only 2 similarities are the club involved and an unsuitable stadium. One was an act of hooliganism, one wasn't.
There is plenty of stuff out there to read about this, please take the time. It could have happened at many a football or rugby match, and indeed big concert, and could still happen again in some places.

When i mentioned Heysel my tongue was planted firmly in cheek and yes your right it was caused by hooliganism and a poor ground. I've read and watched a few documenterys about about the disaster and there are a few similaritys as the owners of Heysel stadium and Belgian police were never investigated and there was no official inquiry. Again it was a series of events all happening at the same time that caused 39 people to lose there lives, Juventus fans blamed Liverpool fans and a poor stadium and Liverpool fans blamed the police (i know i know but i couldn't resist one little dig) the truth will be somewhere in between.

As a regular at Old Trafford in the 80's and 90's you will rememeber the Arsenal game in 1990? I'd have been 9 and would normally stand in the scoreboard paddock but that day my dad took me into the Strettford end and was down towards the front and was involved in the crush after Winterburn fouled Choccy. There was a huge surge forward and i was taken clean off my feet i don't know who it was who picked me up of the floor but i'd sure like to shake his hand because that was a scary moment.

Another was in 99 i was watching Metallica at Milton Keynes bowl up at the font there was a lot of pushing and shoving the next thing i rememeber was being on the floor because the first 15/20 rows deep of people had slipped causeing everyone who was leaning on each other to fall too. The band had to stop playing untill everyone got back to there feet. The lad next to me snapped his leg and i escaped without harm. A year later at Roskilde in Denmark the same happend during Pearl Jams set and 9 people died from suffocation since then, you'll notice at most festivals and big gigs thesedays they have a semicircle barrier (golden circle) and a gate with ristrictions on how many people can get up close to the bands.

Aye, the Heysel comparison has made many times on loads of other places and it irritates me no end. Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular on here.
I have been in the middle of that far too many times to even think about over the years, and like I say not just at football. Even coming out of the Manchester Academy after a gig last year was hairy and I had to get out of the crush as it was horrible.
At the end of the day 96 people (well 95 on the day and one later in hospital) went to a football game and never went home alive, and that should never have been allowed to happen.
That goes for various other events as well including Ibrox, Bradford, Middlesborough, Birmingham, Villa Park etc etc..

The only common denominator in all this debate is that all think it was a great tragedy, so why in other posts all the 'hot air' about stewarding and restrictions on movement etc etc.. when all the new regulations are to stop this happening again? or is it a case of NIMBY

Hillsborough wasn't just a disaster waiting to happen, it was a repeat of disasters past with no lessons learned. 33 died at Bolton in 1946 at an FA Cup game. Lots of those killed were from Leyth, Bent and Bongs. My grandad got his foot stepped on by a police horse. More details here, if anyone's interested... surprising how similar the scenes are to Hillsborough, aside from the dress codes of the time. www.merseysidepotters.com/Burnden.htm Andy Burnham is a genuine terraces football fan, and those booing show no respect either to the sincerity of the man, nor the solemnity of the occasion. I might lob an insult, or worse, at Maggie T if she walked past our street, but I'd never shout her down at a memorial service.

Hillsborough wasn't just a disaster waiting to happen, it was a repeat of disasters past with no lessons learned. 33 died at Bolton in 1946 at an FA Cup game. Lots of those killed were from Leyth, Bent and Bongs. My grandad got his foot stepped on by a police horse. More details here, if anyone's interested... surprising how similar the scenes are to Hillsborough, aside from the dress codes of the time. www.merseysidepotters.com/Burnden.htm Andy Burnham is a genuine terraces football fan, and those booing show no respect either to the sincerity of the man, nor the solemnity of the occasion. I might lob an insult, or worse, at Maggie T if she walked past our street, but I'd never shout her down at a memorial service.

I have avoided this thread but will just post this , and this is not a dig at the Liverpool club or it's fans as it could have been any of the big clubs and their fans

As others have said there were many mistakes that day and the people asking for ' justice ' are not looking for justice , they are looking for blame

Well one thing that might finally end these calls for justice would be for one , just one Liverpool fan who was there that day without a ticket to stand up and admit that they along with several hundred if not thousand others were partly to blame for those tragic events

They are the ones whose concience is not clear , all the other parties involved have admitted that they were partly to blame

Just one

There is no evidence that ticketless fans caused the deaths that day. Not a bit. There are reams and reams of documents and evidence that the authorities, Sheffield Council, Sheffield Wednesday and the police are culpable for the deaths of 96 innocent people. Despite this, successive governments have failed to address the problems, and the families are left with no true thorough independent enquiry which apportioned responsibility and subsuqent action. Not a single lost job, not a single penny in lost wages. But plenty of compensation for traumatised police officers. Andy Burnham is a member of a government that has shown no interest in the issue until with the 20 year anniversary and public pressure they suddenly decided to act

Not a surprise to see Mancs popping up on here to have digs at Liverpool

It's clear to see the authorites got it wrong that day. No question of the matter.

However, the Liverpool fans were hardly going to ring up Justice Taylor and say 'hey laa, this report thing your doing, me and a few of the lads were trying to blag our way in, just thought you'd like to know' now were they?

Having watched football through the 80's and 90's both at home and abroad it was commonplace for ticketless folk to mill around and then either storm the gates or kick off and hope the police rounded you up and put you in the ground. Not big or clever, but thats what happened. Regularly.

Creating mayhem was often the order of the day to get in and it still happens today some times. Like when Liverpool played in Athens for the Champions League Final, for example. So whilst the grounds now are safe all seated environments with CCTV and trained stewards and policing, we're still getting thousands of ticketless football fans turing up and storming the gates. Tell me, who has moved on and who hasn't.

That cup semi must have been the only big game during in living memory that didn't have ticketless fans turning up and trying to get in.

Don't you find that a bit strange?

Ahh the champion of the great unwashed spouts again who obviously has NOT read the full documentation on this subject (and yes I have studied it at some length and time). many many of the 'pushers' on the day in question admitted to not having a ticket but were intent on gaining admittance but the coroner didnt allow this (amongst other) evidence to go before the Inquest, and as for police officers getting compensation whilst I personally do not fully agree with it I would ask the leftie student has he ever had to see a dead body or 'lay one out' especially if that body be of a child or young person? and dont give me that its part of his/her (police) duties crap for it isn't and if it was its still not a particular thrilling thing to do, or have people kick,throw things and spit at you whilst carrying out first aid on the injured - yes that was documented and filmed also.
And I am neither a man utd liverpool or indeed a football 'fan' just someone who reads the FULL reports and doesnt paraphrase them to suit his own political ideology.

The hypocrisy does annoy though. How many Liverpudlians mocked the Munich Air Disaster. I would surmise that everybody involved in that day from the authoritis to the fans themselves, including some of the dead ones was partly to blame not that blaming anybody alters anything. What will it achieve? Surely they should recognise that however horific, however sad, their children did not die in vain and changed English football for the better.

Quote: Tyldesley NO1 Leyther "There is no evidence that ticketless fans caused the deaths that day. Not a bit. There are reams and reams of documents and evidence that the authorities, Sheffield Council, Sheffield Wednesday and the police are culpable for the deaths of 96 innocent people. Despite this, successive governments have failed to address the problems, and the families are left with no true thorough independent enquiry which apportioned responsibility and subsuqent action. Not a single lost job, not a single penny in lost wages. But plenty of compensation for traumatised police officers. Andy Burnham is a member of a government that has shown no interest in the issue until with the 20 year anniversary and public pressure they suddenly decided to act Not a surprise to see Mancs popping up on here to have digs at Liverpool www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/pub ... icinterest If you also read page three of the document you'll find that the police officers were due to recive compenstion claim against the chief constable but after reveiw the of the House of Lords found in favour of the chief constables and no compensation was paid. Yet £23m has been paid out in claims from fans that day with two reciveing over £1m the rest shared between 1500 other claims.

Quote: Tyldesley NO1 Leyther "There is no evidence that ticketless fans caused the deaths that day. Not a bit. There are reams and reams of documents and evidence that the authorities, Sheffield Council, Sheffield Wednesday and the police are culpable for the deaths of 96 innocent people. Despite this, successive governments have failed to address the problems, and the families are left with no true thorough independent enquiry which apportioned responsibility and subsuqent action. Not a single lost job, not a single penny in lost wages. But plenty of compensation for traumatised police officers. Andy Burnham is a member of a government that has shown no interest in the issue until with the 20 year anniversary and public pressure they suddenly decided to act Not a surprise to see Mancs popping up on here to have digs at Liverpool www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/pub ... icinterest If you also read page three of the document you'll find that the police officers were due to recive compenstion claim against the chief constable but after reveiw the of the House of Lords found in favour of the chief constables and no compensation was paid. Yet £23m has been paid out in claims from fans that day with two reciveing over £1m the rest shared between 1500 other claims.

Quote: mutt1 "Not even in Lord Justice Taylors report? As people have posted ticketless fans were the norm in the 80's and to think that an FA cup semi final wouldn't have attracted any is just being nieve. The poblem with the Leppings lane end was once you approched the turnstyle ticket or no ticket you weren't getting back out because of the bottle necked entrance. The interim and final report can be found here Of course there were ticketless fans there but Tyldesley NO1 Leyther is right - there is no evidence that ticketless fans caused the deaths that day. Your quote from the Taylor report does nothing to contradict that. As for compensation, some police officers were denied the right to sue for damages but plenty more received payments. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1197720.stm www.independent.co.uk/news/hills ... 89055.html

Quote: mutt1 "Not even in Lord Justice Taylors report? As people have posted ticketless fans were the norm in the 80's and to think that an FA cup semi final wouldn't have attracted any is just being nieve. The poblem with the Leppings lane end was once you approched the turnstyle ticket or no ticket you weren't getting back out because of the bottle necked entrance. The interim and final report can be found here Of course there were ticketless fans there but Tyldesley NO1 Leyther is right - there is no evidence that ticketless fans caused the deaths that day. Your quote from the Taylor report does nothing to contradict that. As for compensation, some police officers were denied the right to sue for damages but plenty more received payments. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1197720.stm www.independent.co.uk/news/hills ... 89055.html