Last year we had a situation where we played Saints and got beat. We played them again two weeks later and won rendering the first game meaningless apart from having to play an extra game in between.

I don't know how that is better for the game.

It's not anti Leeds sentiment your are a top, top side, or 'sour grapes' by yours truly, but, I'm still not persuaded by the 'Play Off' argument.

If we accept that Wigan win the title at Salford (God forbid), and it mean't something, do you think that it wouldn't sell out? Your 5,000 figure is there to make your point and in some way makes mine. The reason that there might be only 5,000 at Salford is because "it's only the hub cap, the minor prem' blah de blah

What I would offer is that the Grand Final is now a stand out fixture, an event that attracts a broad spectrum of rugby league supporters from non participating clubs, great marketing, a bit like the Challenge Cup only closer to home.

Do you think they wouldn't sell out OT if the reward was tweaked? For example, based on last year Wigan were Champions (bit of a sorry theme here) and Warrington and Leeds were playing for a big pot of Sky cash to spend on next years recruitment and the second spot in an expanded WCC?

im not reading that clearly...?? are you suggesting you could crown a team champions and have the two runners up to them play infront of 75,000 fans for no trophy no title just some nominal prize money and spot in a WCC competition.?

we cant sell out the halton stadium for a knock out game that gets the winner a spot at wembley big prize money and national media coverage......... surely your completely dreaming. we can only ever sell out old trafford for a grand final.

we cant even sell out a football stadium by getting half of the league to play local derbies in it on one day.......

The main reason that the format doesn't currently work is the lack of competitive teams.

Warrington, Wigan, Saints, Leeds etc all know that they can get into the top 8 by picking and choosing the games they want to compete in and the games they want to rest players in.

If we had 14 competitive teams, then the top teams wouldn't have that luxury, or if we there were less teams getting into the playoffs we wouldn't have that luxury.

As it is, there are currently only about 5 decent teams in the league and there are 8 playoff places, so the league becomes very pointless.

8 years ago we were one of the mediocre teams, so it was far more exciting as we didn't know if we would make it to the playoffs or not, so most games had some significance.

We are a top team now, and for the top teams, winning the league has no value to it currently. The league is just there to get yourself into the playoffs.
This devalues some of the league fixtures but it is accepted because that is how playoffs work.

The amount of teams that get into the playoffs has been increased to 8 to keep more teams with an interest for longer.
This devalues even more of the league fixtures for the teams in the top 4 to 6 places.

Leeds have won from outside the top 4 for 2 years running, which has made teams believe that it is not vital to finish in the top 2 or 4.
This devalues even more of the league fixtures for the top teams.

Glad I started this post. Some good views both side of the fence.

For me the devaluation of the importance of 2 points and a win and the habitual resting of players means I shall not be renewing my two VP tickets for next season. I shall just pick my games.

Nothing to do with sour grapes, it's that weekends are precious leisure time for me and there are better things to do than sit and watch a game waiting for full time to come.

Just wait for the explosion of anger on here when the 19 is named at 2pm and fans see who is rested this week!!

--just about sums it up for me as well--i actually caught the flu watching the widnes game , which cost me a few days off work ,and for what-the early rounds,i find,imo,are pointless!no s-t for me nxt season im afraid!will just choose the games to go on from now on

One point I would make is that most fans of these decent teams, while they're quite happy to see the play offs reduced to five, are rather quieter regarding possible merits of a four or three team format. A cynic might think that this was a case of pulling up the ladder behind them. Of course this doesn't apply to FPTP purists but I've yet to read many of their suggestions as to how lost revenue might be recovered, were their preferred method of deciding the title winner adopted.

It could well be that some of the previously 'rested' players were in fact injured.

Thinking more about the game now I think I am missing the following from the current game.

1. Watching individual flair players and play with spontaneity (Woods, Schofield, Hanley, Phil Blake, Davies, Gill, Meninga, Miles this list could go on and on etc)

2. Good old biff. Individual square ups between enforcers (Boyd, Tamati, Sorenson, Skerret, etc)

3. Contested scrums / win against the head / penalties for feeding.

4. Atmosphere containing tension, confrontation and anticipation.

5. League atmosphere like in 1993/94 when we were top of the league with one game left.

Yes, this is what I miss.

that 1994 season while a great season had its faults .....and just on that while you mention missing flair players we had Craig teitzel and John thursfield in that squad two of the most ordinary wire players ever to pull on a jersey.

We all know that Russel Smith incorrectly penalised us in the wigan game and then took us ten meters back to allow Botica to win the game for wigan. but also to allow Bradford to go above us on points difference didnt Leeds rest their entire team in a game against Bradford because they were due to play at Wembley, and Bradford ran up a cricket score.

So even with that format we should have been Champions and We should have played Brisbane in the world club challenge game and denied Wigan their greatest ever moment

Yes we seriously got shafted by Leeds.

Mind no season is ever lost by one incident or one game I bet we dropped points cheaply in other games during the campaign.

When did LWF come back?

The 1993/94 season was indeed a great memory and until Tony Smith arrived it was my favourite time as a Warrington fan. However it is easy to look back through rose tinted glasses:

Back then people used to pick and choose their matches more than they do today. We got over 11000 for that infamous Wigan game where Botica kicked the penalty at the end to beat us. We got 7800 for Saints at home. The rest of the season the gates were around 5000 or so with some gates of 4000 or less.

And also back then the league table was always distorted by some teams having games in hand. I remember us being top for a while but never quite believing we would stay there as Wigan had a number of games in hand on us, which usually you would expect them to win.

The 6-8 game with the Botica kick has gone down in history as the "we was robbed" moment but we still had our destiny in our hands at that point. What really killed us, was a few weeks after that, Leeds smashed us in the Challenge Cup and then we lost the next two league games to Halifax and Bradford. Although we were still top after that, I remember the mood at the time was "we've blown it".

At the end of the season Wigan had to play 10 games in the last 4 weeks to clear their games in hand, and they lost 4 of them including surprising ones to Hull, Hull KR and Sheffield Eagles. This meant the title race was back on.

The really disappointing moment for us was we went to Central Park in the middle of their fixture congestion, when their form was rocky and they were tired, and we lost quite easily. My memory might be rocky on this but I think Davies was missing that game. I knew then we were not deserving of being champions. We won our last few games but after that, Wigan only needed to win theirs to be champions.

Yes that final game of the season for us against Sheffield Eagles was a great atmosphere, but no better than the recent Challenge Cup semis or Saints away in the last playoff last year. The idea that season was one of great atmosphere and interest in rugby league because of a tight three way tussle for the title, is a myth, as is the idea that we were only robbed by Russell Smith's dodgy decision. We had it other opportunities to win the title after that and if we are honest with ourselves we weren't quite up to being champions with the players we had, thought Jonathan Davies took us very very close.