Great post Lefty, but you have left me in suspense - What were/are you sure of?...

Absolutely, unequivocally spot-on. Fortunately, my abiding memory of Andy Gregory isn't his shabby performance off the field, but his scoot from dummy half that sent Mike Greg on his way to his glorious try for GB at the Sydney Football Stadium vs Australia. I can see it all now - Mike still isn't going to pass to Offiah, and it's beautiful.

The only stats I've quoted are the ones that matter: games won v games lost, league position and how well you did in cups.

A really great team with lots of great players would not get absolutely floored by losing one player...especially when his replacement was one of the all time great halfbacks!

What I suspect was really going on back then was that was an unbalanced team, with a handful of top class players, like Mike Gregory, Boyd, Blake and Johnson, and then some other players who were not anywhere near the standard of a top class side. Obviously some on here are attached to that side and view it through rose tinted glasses because that was the team of their teenage years when they were most passionate about RL, and they are attached really to those great players and forget the lack of quality in the rest of the side and the many losses against low/mid table sides.

I have the same issue with the team of the mid 1990s, I have happy memories of Davies, Bateman, Mackey, Shelford and Harris and that will always be 'my' Wire team, more than Tony Smith's bandwagon of success, but if I take the rose tinted glasses off and look through Rothmans I have to accept yes it wasn't a great side and there were a lot of other players that wouldn't have got near the top teams.

As for Briers, in the modern era he's the greatest Wire halfback, for his longevity, what he contributed in our bad times and good times, and because in the latter part of his career he gave me total confidence that he could control a game and knew how to win, which apart from Sinfield very few players in SL do these days.

I know its fashionable to say he wasted the early part of his career but I remember the days when he was putting the Aussies on the back foot in the 2000 World Cup and everyone was cursing David Waite for leaving him out of GB in 2001 and 2003 Ashes....yes maybe if he was ambitious he wouldn't have hung around at a rubbish team like us for so many years but I'm glad he did waste the early part of his career by staying with us, because it meant both him and us enjoyed the later part of his career much more.

And yes in the good old days with John Woods or Paul Bishop or even Rocky Turner you might have enjoyed some great times in cup runs against lower division sides in front of crowds of 3000 but with Lee Briers you got three wins at Wembley, wins in playoffs that took us to two Grand Finals. Maybe thats because Briers played in a far better team than Woods and Bishop did but I think at least part of it was down to Briers himself.

I agree that Andy Gregory was the linchpin of that side who orchestrated the play in much the same way as Briers was in the recent successful side. Briers' unexpected departure, albeit for different reasons, has caused much the same problem of disorganisation and lack of cohesion and cutting edge and, of the current crop, only GOB, in my opinion, seems to have that instinct to organise play. Whether that can be coached into someone else remains to be seen but I have my doubts.

I also agree that both Briers and Gregory were different types of halfback to Woods and Blake who, though capable of individual brilliance were not organisers of play. To me Ratchford falls into the same category as Woods and Blake but I could be wrong.

I doubt though that, even if Gregory stayed, that the team would have kicked on to greater things. The awesome front row of Boyd. Tamati and Jackson was a bit old in the tooth. Roberts and Duane, two great players in my book, got crocked and Billy McGinty also moved to Wigan to become a firm favourite with the pies supporters. That period was a purple patch when we had a combination of veterans, locals and good young players which could not last because our best young players were always going to be tapped by the likes of Wigan, Saints or Leeds with who, in most cases, we could not compete financially.

This cycle of a one or two year purple patch destroyed by a combination of injury and poaching of our best players has happened so many times to the Wire over the years that I remain convinced that, notwithstanding our recent successes, a properly enforced salary cap is the best way to achieve a competitive league and, in the long run, a competitive league would rekindle interest in the game.

People are saying gregory leaving is the reason we fell apart. It isn't, because we didn't. In 1987 after he had gone we reached three major finals in which we lost every time to THAT wigan side. People are underestimating how good they actually were. They were ruthless and any team that was remotely a threat had their best players taken(us - gregory, widnes - lydon, offiah, saints - connolly, platt. The list probably goes on). In 1989 they stopped us from getting to wembley with that drop goal and in 1990 when we did finally get there they were waiting for us again! Our main gripe should be with the station road pitch for ruining Keith Holden's career. Plus, its true that our formidable pack was starting to age(boyd started to pick up a lot of injuries) and roberts was also finished too early.

Your recollections bring a tear to the eye of vintage Wire fans Lefty. As you mention Andy Gregory brought more than great organisation to that side which had a fantastic forward pack but a backline that wasn't as slick as some others.
The main problem with AG was that he wanted to play the game his way and expected everyone else to fall in line (coaches included). A certain player in that side told me of the huge rows at training and after games which disapeared once AG left. His disagreements with Sir Les weren't confind to the famous bout of fisticuffs they had after a game (Craven Park I think). He treated Warrington in similar fashion to Widnes, got what he wanted and departed. Great player with a totally selfish attitude. Wonder if the ghost writer has asked Sir Les or Jacko for a quote?

there is a certain element of truth to the rose tinted teenage years argument, but i'm struggling to find many players that lacked Quality out of say the world war 3 team.
Johnson,Drummond, Cullen, Ropati, Lyon, Woods, Crompton, Boyd, Tamati, Humphries, Jackson, Duane, Mcginty.
Sanderson, Roberts.

Cullen, Crompton, and Humphries were the only substandard players.
Cullen was an awful centre, Crompton never really made the grade and like the Awful Tony Humphries was a regular reserve grade player rather than first team regular.

That day We were missing Mike Gregory, and Mark Forster couldnt get in the side.

it was a far better side than the one the bookies made the favourites to win the league this year.

From what I recall, John Woods could be absolutely brilliant, or completely and utterly anonymous - often in the same game. When he was still at Leigh in 1984 Leeds lost 18-24, and Woods scored all their points including a couple of individually brilliant tries. A fair number of Leeds fans applauded him that day, and I'd say its still the most dominant performance I've seen from a single player - that Leigh side wasn't even that good.

I swear I saw John Woods at marker and intercept the dummy half's pass!

I dare you to tell him face to face.

A bit of *My dad can fight your dad* going on there Duckie.

Quote: the flying biscuit "there is a certain element of truth to the rose tinted teenage years argument, but i'm struggling to find many players that lacked Quality out of say the world war 3 team. Johnson,Drummond, Cullen, Ropati, Lyon, Woods, Crompton, Boyd, Tamati, Humphries, Jackson, Duane, Mcginty. Sanderson, Roberts. Cullen, Crompton, and Humphries were the only substandard players. Cullen was an awful centre, Crompton never really made the grade and like the Awful Tony Humphries was a regular reserve grade player rather than first team regular. That day We were missing Mike Gregory, and Mark Forster couldnt get in the side. it was a far better side than the one the bookies made the favourites to win the league this year.'" But relative to the other sides in the league at that time it was not special. It's easy to have selective memories. The 15-15 World War 3 game against Wigan has gone down in legend but look at the other results around it....we lost to Widnes the game before, we lost to Hunslet the next game and lost to Hull the next league game after that. A few weeks before World War 3 we'd got knocked out of the John Player at home to Oldham. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seaso ... mmary.html What was going on with other teams in the league, was this just an era of unparalleled great rugby league where the likes of Hunslet and Oldham were packed with greats? It's like the 2000 season when Langer, Gee and Nikau came. We had that great win against Bradford were there were loads of brawls and we pulled off a great comeback after being out of the game at half time. Langer was genius that day. We finished 6th in the league that season, same as we did in the World War 3 season, and we also reached a Challenge Cup semi final. I'm sure if you look at results around that Bradford win we'd have been inconsistent just like in 87/88 but I prefer to look back at a line up that had Langer, Nikau, Nutley, Kohe-Love, Hunte and Briers in it and think what great days those were and I wouldn't mind having some of those guys in our team today. Imagine having those halfbacks today!

Quote: the flying biscuit "there is a certain element of truth to the rose tinted teenage years argument, but i'm struggling to find many players that lacked Quality out of say the world war 3 team. Johnson,Drummond, Cullen, Ropati, Lyon, Woods, Crompton, Boyd, Tamati, Humphries, Jackson, Duane, Mcginty. Sanderson, Roberts. Cullen, Crompton, and Humphries were the only substandard players. Cullen was an awful centre, Crompton never really made the grade and like the Awful Tony Humphries was a regular reserve grade player rather than first team regular. That day We were missing Mike Gregory, and Mark Forster couldnt get in the side. it was a far better side than the one the bookies made the favourites to win the league this year.'" But relative to the other sides in the league at that time it was not special. It's easy to have selective memories. The 15-15 World War 3 game against Wigan has gone down in legend but look at the other results around it....we lost to Widnes the game before, we lost to Hunslet the next game and lost to Hull the next league game after that. A few weeks before World War 3 we'd got knocked out of the John Player at home to Oldham. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seaso ... mmary.html What was going on with other teams in the league, was this just an era of unparalleled great rugby league where the likes of Hunslet and Oldham were packed with greats? It's like the 2000 season when Langer, Gee and Nikau came. We had that great win against Bradford were there were loads of brawls and we pulled off a great comeback after being out of the game at half time. Langer was genius that day. We finished 6th in the league that season, same as we did in the World War 3 season, and we also reached a Challenge Cup semi final. I'm sure if you look at results around that Bradford win we'd have been inconsistent just like in 87/88 but I prefer to look back at a line up that had Langer, Nikau, Nutley, Kohe-Love, Hunte and Briers in it and think what great days those were and I wouldn't mind having some of those guys in our team today. Imagine having those halfbacks today!

Not familiar with the Craven Park story, MKC, but I did hear of a certain Kiwi taxi driver making an Andy Gregory size imprint into some metal lockers, after a training session.

I can still picture myself on a sunny Saturday morning, going absolutely mental, when Mike Greg took that pass. One of my fave RL moments, and had a lump in my throat the size of a cricket ball, when they showed it on SPotY, just a few weeks after his death, when they do that little piece on "sports stars who have left us this year".

Another memory of MIKE Greg, was the lead up to transfer deadline day in 1989 (so players cold be eligible for Challenge Cup, otherwise, they'd be cup-tied), when rumours were RIFE that Greg was about to sign for "them". A lad who I worked with, rang the club office, and asked had he been sold. He got the answer he (and all the rest of Warrington) wanted.

Mike's and Briers' loyalty to our club, should NEVER be forgotten. It's a pity another Gregory's loyalty wasn't so great.
Gregory engineered a move from Widnes, but unfortunately for him, his club of choice never came running. It did, 18 months later, though.