I said last season after Salford away, that Dean is behind Hayes, otherwise it would a reversal with Hayes being loaned out and Dean being in our reserves as immediate cover.

This. It's been a total failure by DP and GC for not giving more of an opportunity to Dean and Hayes in 2022.

7 and 41 metres. But look at the tackles.

Not a direct attack at you, but this proves the point about Currie being a scapegoat. Currie demoted to a squad player, yet Nicholson should be moved to loose. One what evidence? Yes, Currie didn’t make enough meters, but he made 5 times that of Nicholson, who is being moved into middle ground where your job is to make meters. He made 7. All game. 7 meters. But Currie is the one that needs dropping?

Currie also made more than a starting quota occupying prop forward. And a bench prop. That’s not in any way endorsement of Currie, but it just highlights that the props aren’t competing. Only Philbin made decent meters. Crowther and Matautia. At 72 and 60. Were just not competitive enough in the forwards.

Fair point. Maybe Nicholson and Currie should fight it out for the loose forward spot next season. I picked Nicholson due to him being the future, but he should earn his place like everyone else.

Modern day second rows tend to be second line props (not something I like) so when we're missing our two first choice props it is more glaringly obvious than it would be if Saints had the same issue - Matautia and Sironen would still eat up metres for them.

Our current second rows are too similar in style for my liking, I would really like one of them to be in the Waterhouse style.
Has Riley Dean made an impact at whichever teams he has been at this year? Or is it a classic case of the longer you’re out of the public eye the better player you become to disgruntled supporters?
As regards Hayes not playing on Saturday I suspect the game plan was damage limitation and there was no need to put him in the firing line.
I am suspicious of the suggestion that GC “bottled “ it by not picking him, he knows him far better than anyone on here. Just like everyone on here I hope he is the future half back star we all crave as Drinkwater has proved a massive disappointment (euphemism for stunk the place out more than a month old mackerel)..

I understand that Nicholson is young, but the point is that the job on the middle is to make tackles and make meters. There’s no evidence to suggest he can do half of that job. I’m sure he can, and I’m sure on junior grades he has, but if we’re saying that of the two, Currie is the lesser player then that is simply not true. It’s that internal bias owing to expectations and salary.

The point about second rows being extra props was debated last year when Currie was the target again. But we don’t play that style, like it or not. Currie has always done the same, yet rather than replacing him in the mass exodus, we sign a carbon copy for the other side. The club want width from the back row, with leg speed and a bit of ball handling. Which is all well and good when your back three and pack make the meters to get you in position, but they’re not. Games like Saturday show that we’re easily strangled and restricted for meters and momentum, which takes out the ability to go wide. And we don’t have enough in the middle to do anything about it.

I made a point on the other thread that the 6 again rule killed us when we were getting on top. Whenever we look like getting some momentum’s for example Dufty making a few meters on kick return and looking like a quick play the ball to release Ashton to scoot. They would use that rule and completely kill the momentum, let the line get set and strangle us.

So how do you counter that, well you could start your set further up field, meaning the we catch the kick on the full. But that needs kick pressure. To get in a position to pressure the kicker you need to be winning the ruck on the late set tackles. If you wrestle and try and win one against the run of momentum, you risk giving away a late set penalty which is an absolute no-no, so you need to win the early set tackles and squeeze them. But, we don’t. We seen on Saturday Welsby step between Williams and Crowther on kick return. Crowther and Bullock gave away offside penalties on their line. Bullock gives away the penalty on the kick off return… it’s us, our lack of discipline and resilience. We’re the first to crack under the pressure that we’re trying to create. Could be fitness, more likely to be preparedness. How much game like training are we doing under extreme fatigue where these things are tested and practiced. Not enough, evidently.

So we’re not good enough in those arm wrestle elements to play with the width that we want to play. We’ve bought Vaughan, Mikaele (twice), Dudson, Bullock, McGuire, Magoulias, Crowther, Harrison, Kasiano to add to Philbin to try and fix that middle problem. And it’s worse now than when we signed those 9 players. They can’t all be bad players, they’re just under prepared and not fit/motivated enough.

Interesting as the stats are its one game, we need to look at them as a whole for the season or the back end when we weren't winning to give any weight to the 'Ben Bashers' or 'Currie Clappers" debate.

Season stats show neither being excellent. Nicholson averages 1/2m more than Currie per carry and has a 6% missed tackle count, Currie has 7%. Both have scored 6 tries (Nicholson has played 10 games fewer), Nicholson has made more tackle busts but made the same amount of errors in fewer games.

If you're going off the stats alone then Nicholson has had the better season.

i dont know if i've mentioned it on here, i've deffo had this conversation on match days that nicholson whilst an encouraging young player, doesnt do an awful lot, and he does get a pass as he's young and came in as a coup from wigan.

chambers himself said in the guardian a few weeks back we needed more from our 2nd rowers.

i've lost track of who said what on this last page, saints have built their forward pack over the last 4 years on bulky back rowers, you see the size of sironen as a second row? very little finesse.

someone just said well thats not the way we play, we dont have a style of play whatsoever, for all of powell's alleged free flowing out wide attack we were winning games when the props were scoring under the sticks this year, under chambers we had a few bright patches, the cas game where we ripped them apart through the middle, we haven't done that in any other game, or attempted to even

What's the tackle stats for both?

Tackles
Currie - 704
Nicholson - 502

Missed Tackles
Currie - 49
Nicholson - 31

Tackles per game (to account for Nicholson playing 10 less games)
Currie - 27.08
Nicholson - 31.38

Missed Tackles per game (to account for Nicholson playing 10 less games)
Currie - 1.88
Nicholson - 1.94

Without commenting on the players performance I think we can all agree that whatever we were doing did not work and has not worked for a long time.

Mine wasn’t meant a shot at Nicholson. He’s actually a good athlete and I would have him in my squad, just not at the expense of Currie.

The system we’re trying to play of blowing them away down the middle and using pace on the edges is failing. We have (had) pace in all of the key positions. Clark, Williams, Dufty, Ashton and Thewlis are quick. The second rows are faster than the centres, but the centre void is being addressed. The failure is, in my opinion, our 6’4” 110kg prop isn’t hitting as hard as their 6’4” 110kg prop.

Nothing to do with skill. Just about whether they want to, whether they’re fit enough to and whether they are being put in difficult positions to do so by not being as smart at the opposition (i.e. the 6 again).