Has the referee ever had a good game, when St Helens have lost?.......

No, the referee either cheated himself or allowed the opposition to cheat all game.

I'm buzzing in with contradiction

Not really. Dodd and Welsby are what 19 and 20? Coote and Fages are 31 and 27 (ish). Dodd has played all of about 3 games in his position, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a bit of a learning curve next season. Fages has been a superb signing for us, but isn't a traditional all-round halfback. Most young halfbacks in SL will have a better kicking and passing game than him, that isn't where his strengths lie. Welsby could also end up a better player than Coote. Coote however has 13 or so years of experience of playing with players like Jonathon Thurston and playing in grand finals in the NRL and SL. Welsby has also played about four games at fullback. You'd expect both Welsby and Dodd to make mistakes next year as they gain the experience.

I know we are veering a bit off topic here and not that I care that much but I was a bit surprised when I heard that Fages was leaving Saints, always thought he looked half decent. Wondered if it was the pull of Watson his previous coach but then again to leave a GF winning team..... or was he nudged out.

But you're also freeing up cap space to strengthen the team elsewhere! I don't expect saints first team to be significantly weaker next season.

I think coote will be a miss, Hull KR have got a great signing there. Fages will be less of a miss but he does have strengths and I think he's been good for saints generally. He's like myler was for us I think, by that I mean he doesn't have the all round half back game (horrible kicking game) but was effective and overall we looked better with him on the field. Welsby is a good player he will be reliable, perhaps lacks a little pace but his effort levels can't be questioned. As wellens showed you don't have to be the fastest to be an excellent fullback. Dodd could be the next shaun Long or the next Danny Richardson, only time will tell.

In other news Thaler does the same to every team, not just saints, he's a terrible referee and he's not alone in that club regarding current superleague referees. Your players didn't play well and that's why you lost. You lot are like the high school bully, you want to dominate and dictate the game but don't like it when someone stands up to you, like we did and Cas did, you don't have an automatic right to control the ruck and game speed, there are other good teams and good coaches out there.

There is a lot of blame aimed at Woolf by Saints fans based on the team he inherited from Holbrook but I’m not sure it is fair. Having watched their televised games I think he is dealing with a team that has become very limited and got them playing to their strengths.
If you look at the influential players from Holbrook time
Coote, still solid but not as effective in attack, age catching up?
Lomax, I’ve never been a massive fan but he looks extremely blunt now. Injuries catching up?
Roby can still tackle but absolutely no threat with ball in hand.
Walmesley still a decent prop BUT Luke T leaving means defences can concentrate on Walmesley
Personally I would be giving Woolf huge credit for getting the results that he does.
However, Cas beat them with a significantly under strength team which included at scrum half a player most of Saints fans consider a clown. They beat an under strength Catalans and thought that shows where they are.
Their constant blaming of referees for their defeats shows a lack of insight.
They also believe all rugby league is played in as boring a manner as their team does, which is far from the truth!
I would much rather watch any team in SL than Saints for entertainment.
As for winning…massively over rated!

There is also the fact that their team/squad is nowhere near as good as they think it is. They're a good side obviously but overrated by themselves and Sky. Woolf has done well to make their defence very good which keeps them in every tough game. He's had to as he knows their attacking threat is not too clever.

Yes it is. How can Dodd have a better kicking passing and running game than Fages weaken your team when he's in it. As for Welsby, he's played 14 SL games this season for Saints, and hasn't missed many for you. Again, how can he weaken a team that he's already in.

Mainly cos he's just slotting in for injuries covering other players and just finishing off tries.

If he was at fb or stand off for a period, different pressure and expectation on him to create or be a link man.

We've not seen this yet, he's just currently popping up on the end of breaks or passes.

A la Jamie foster

I pointed this out a couple of years ago

Fages and lomax whilst limited half backs, were complimented by saints pack and style of play under Holbrook.

20m out, they were lethal, obvs they had their big middles, but they 2nd rowers were big straight forward up and at em runners, so you got whacked out wide as well as in the middle.

What that meant was it afforded the likes of lomax and fages to to step/jink and catch defences out as they're gearing up to take the runners.

Think how many times lomax caught us out, or how many times he's copped a high tackle coming back against the defence, how many penalties he's received and the couple of sin binnings that have occurred because of it.

Thats not how saints play now they're back row has changed completely, they ended up starting bentley at right, from taia, peyroux and Paulo (bit part I know)

Bentley a lot smaller doesn't run as direct and hard.

Because there are other things in the game. Fages is probably the best tackler amongst the half backs, he competes and makes a nuisance of himself. His decision making is also decent so he'll make the right decisions most of the time. These are the kinds of areas where we'll find out whether Dodd will improve us and they are things players will get better at with experience. Danny Richardson is a better kicker and passer than Fages but isn't anywhere near as good as him overall.

I'm still worried!

Not sure why. We have performed no better or worse than anyone could have sensibly expected.

This was never an overnight fix. Nights like tonight and last week are going to continue for a while yet, whoever is coaching them. This is a side with a number of issues.

The one person who gets a clear run this year (barring any unlikely flirting with the drop) is Powell. He needs to be given the chance to work long term with this squad. As discussed in other threads, we are a club with many ingrained demons and simply expecting a new coach to come in and suddenly fix that is laughable.

Nope it was never going to be pretty his first season. For me it was just let’s do well and then the following season he gets a squad he wants instead of a lot of the dross he as inherited.