while its fair enough your putting your opinion across, the metres and carries stat doesnt really prove anything. graham has made nearly twice as many metres in nearly twice as many carries, so surely this shows there about equal in that department?

True. That is the reason he has such high numbers. He is great at what he does but he wasn't beyond reach last year from a few and I think not only is Carvell running him close this year in terms of effect on the team but he is ahead.

The best I have seen Graham play this year was at the HJ. Don't remember him being amazing at the draw at the KC nor the last hull game nor, if my memory serves me correctly, at Widnes against Wire or many of the other times I have seen him. You say he is the lift and the fight back. I don't see it so much this year.

I am probably wrong though. Although I feel I have seen enough to make a decision.

It isn't a feeling of being on top. I genuinely think Carvell and Wood offer a great deal to the team and IMO it is a better performance than Graham gives at Sts. In another world where Graham had more help or was a at a team that threw him a bone with more forwards, it may be different.

Ultimately it may come to a personal call and as someone has said, there may be a team bias from some (including myself) I am certainly proud of Woody and Gaz for their efforts this year.

I also think there may be a view from some that Graham is the obvious choice. He has undoubtedly been great for some time (and still is) Gaz has had a very rocky few years. Many were saying to get rid on here a year ago. He has risen quickly and has blown me away.

If the stats are showing Graham to the better prop,then am happy to go with that.

I'm not arguing that Wigan don't have a great youth system, they do and are responsible for quite a few at other clubs as well. The argument was that Paul Wood wasn't from Warrington and we should have local lads in our squad, when in reality you have about as many as us. The ones below aren't from Wigan. No matter how hard you try, you can't change that. It's impossible

Tomkins x 2 Milton Keynes
Charnley - Preston
Hansen - Salford
McIlorum - Leeds
Mossop - Whitehaven
Tuson - Leyland

Great to see a club with so many local lads.

Farrell
Hock
O'Loughlin
Deacon
Goulding

Are from Wigan.

I don,t think it does. Graham by his stats puts in twice as much effort in a game than Carvell. If Carvell tried to do the same carries to achieve the same metres he would probably fail as he would probably run his energy level down and be less effective. In game terms we would be asking for Carvell to put his 80 min game into each half of the game, I don,t think he would be capable of it, Morley in his prime Yes, Carvell NO.

This is why Graham is such a great prop and why the NRL have recognised his ability to provide momentum and metres.
His tackle busts and tries scored is probably one of the highest for a prop in super league this season, certainly more than Carvell.

The Australians recognised Graham,s quality at under 18 level, when he played as captain for the great Britain academy team. In the final match of the series he stood up and put in an awe inspiring effort to win the game for his team. These qualities have migrated into his super league career. Carvell is a good prop playing in good form at the back end of his career. Graham in good form is world class and with 5 or 6 more seasons will get better.

So the original question is Gareth Carvell the best prop in the league this season, in certain games YES, for his club YES, in this superleague season NO.

I don't bother taking stats at face value too much as they can be misleading, as an example the following scenario from a kick off.

When the opposition restart the game from a try or from a normal kick off a prop can quite often gain a lot of easy yardage, its normally 20 - 30 yards after the fullback has handed the ball onto him or he's taken it from the restart himself.

Quite a lot of the time with us you will get Brett Hodgson taking the ball from a restart and he will angle left or right and give it to one of our big backs to return the ball like Matt King or Joel Monaghan, given that James Graham is saints main metre maker i'd presume that he returns the ball quite a lot from kick offs whether thats him taking the ball himself or a back like Wellens hands the ball onto him.

Their is no question that James Graham has been the brest british prop for a number of years now, his work rate is unreal and he's the main go too player when saints are looking for yardage.

With us we don't rely on the one prop to make our main yards, we have plenty of other good players in our pack and backline that can make us good yards. James Graham's stats don't suprise me at all as he basically carries saints at times when their looking for yards, Tony Smith has built a good team here where we don't rely on one player for anything as we have become a very good team with team being the operative word.

Yeh some will say that were heavily reliant on Lee Briers but isn't that the case with most teams if they lose their main playmaker, Huddersfield arn't the same team without Brough, Wigan wouldn't be the same team without Sam Tomkins efforts with ball in hand and saints wouldn't have been the same force without Sean Long during their good years, they woukld still have been very good but obviously not as good when you lose a player like Sean Long at his peak.

Anyway, its just opinions. From what ive seen of both Garreth Carvell and James Graham this season so far i'd take Carvell over Graham. I'm not saying here that one or the other is the better overall prop as thats a different debate, the answer on that one would obviously be James Graham, its about this season and i'd certainly take Carvell on his great form this year.

The Super League stats don't show the number of minutes played by a prop so it's hard to compare who is the best without all the facts. Coaches generally seem to give different roles to different players, so Tony Smith might be more pleased with Carvell making 80 metres and 20 tackles in a game than he is with Wood making 110 metres and 30 tackles in a game. There's a lot more to playing at prop than the stats can give. A good mix of different types of prop works best.

I can only use Wigan as an example because I've seen the players and the games. Wigan's best prop this season according to most fans has been Lee Mossop. Statistically he isn't as good as Jeff Lima, but when watching fans clearly see him making more of an impact.

Lima is statistically better because he's a workhorse, his job is to make as many tackles as possible and to keep taking the ball up again and again. He gets dominated in the tackle quite a lot, which means a high amount of metres isn't always as effective as it could be. To compliment Lima Wigan need a prop who will impact in both attack and defence, making big carries and effective tackles and that's where Mossop comes in. Mossop tends to win the collision and it makes a big difference.

It seems to me Wood and Carvell are similar to Lima and Mossop in how they are used by both clubs, and statistically there's not that much difference either. I'm not sure I could choose the best out of Wood and Carvell because I think they both benefit from the work the other one does. The pack is very much a team effort.

James Graham has very impressive stats, but unless there's a powerful strong running prop alongside him that impressive work rate isn't really making much impact for the team. There also aren't any stats that show whether a player wins the collision, gets quick play the ball which benefits the team during the set, whether they are a good ball player (if a prop steps up to the line then passes to put a player through a gap, all it looks like statistically is a prop making a poor carry.), there aren't stats to show how many times they force an error in defence, or how much their presence and work on the pitch can lift a team. Also, as Rob Wire mentioned, kick off returns and drop out returns give props lots of easy metres that can make the stats misleading.

I think 20 - 30 yards might be over-stating it a bit for a prop return from a kick-off. Actually making the 20m line is a very, very good effort.

I must admit, I am a little surprised me Graham's stats. I knew he got through a tonne of work but that's quite unvbelievable when you just look at the numbers, hopefully the move to the NRL will remove the burden a little or he could be a 28 year old retired prop, when I'd like to see him for many more years.

If he's put that shift in, and Saints are still fighting just to make the top four, just where would they have been without him, unreal.

Quote: JWP "I must admit, I am a little surprised me Graham's stats. I knew he got through a tonne of work but that's quite unvbelievable when you just look at the numbers, hopefully the move to the NRL will remove the burden a little or he could be a 28 year old retired prop, when I'd like to see him for many more years. If he's put that shift in, and Saints are still fighting just to make the top four, just where would they have been without him, unreal.'" If you think Graham's are unbelievable have a look at Roby's next to them: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... 1&hp2=1885 Does make you wonder what the f*** have the rest of Siants' pack been doing all season?

Quote: JWP "I must admit, I am a little surprised me Graham's stats. I knew he got through a tonne of work but that's quite unvbelievable when you just look at the numbers, hopefully the move to the NRL will remove the burden a little or he could be a 28 year old retired prop, when I'd like to see him for many more years. If he's put that shift in, and Saints are still fighting just to make the top four, just where would they have been without him, unreal.'" If you think Graham's are unbelievable have a look at Roby's next to them: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... 1&hp2=1885 Does make you wonder what the f*** have the rest of Siants' pack been doing all season?

Being injured.

Don't start this sillyness again now, they've been as injured as every other side.

I was actually at that Grand Final and I can comfortably assert that nobody turned up in the redvee that night. Jammer is a fabulous player but even he cannot win a Grand Final all by himself. That he made a fool of himself was undeniable. However, he shouts at everyone on the pitch - his own team mates as much as anyone - he is a lippy Scouser and that is just who he is. Sometimes he keeps a lid on it towards the refs, other times he doesn't. Without that fire he wouldn't have been half the player he has been and continues to be.


There have been times when that has been the case this season and personally I put it down to the same problem that Eastmond has had (but Graham has been more professional than Eastmond) - he is distracted by his impending move. However, you have also seen the rest of the pack step up and perform when they have been fit, present and determined enough. For example, TP was absolutely immense for us against Hull last week. That doesn't mean Jammer was rubbish. He worked just as hard as ever. But another pack man stood up. That wasn't happening last season or indeed the season before.

James Graham is indeed hardy, of that there is no doubt and it is that quality, along with those moments when his passing is exquisite, that we are going to miss the most. We don't have as durable a player as him in our team. But I don't agree that it is his durability which is what makes him stand out. However, I don't think we will agree on this so it may be best to agree to disagree!

graham plays more minutes than carvell, and also we have a full pack that shares the workload, you have roby and graham, thats it. its all well and good that he has amazing stats now but when hes 28 and burnt out and fades off before he turns 30 well that isnt so good.