errrr, not come out with vacuuous comments like "we'll beat 'em one day, we've got to". No we don't have to beat them, simply because the laws of probability say so.

Without stating the obvious, games are won by scoring more points than the oppostion, not blinkered optimism

So, what do we do instead, as asked above? We can't influence the result. Are we not supposed to be optimistic and hope that our team wins?

We simply put our trust in the people who are paid to deliver, i.e. players and coaching staff.

Nothing wrong in being optimistic, Carbon, but not to the extent that we're going to beat Stains because "we're due one"

Are these the coaching staff who in your own words can't see what an eleven year old can?

Although Im very proud of our progress this season (especially with consideration to last year), Saturday did confirm my worst fears.

I openly admitted before this game that we wouldn't beat them. On here aswell. Our defence again at crucial times is nowhere near good enough. Saints didn't have to do a great deal with the ball to gain enough points to win the game, it was their defence that won it. But its the same defensive lapses everytime we play them. I lost count of the amount of times that Saints had played the ball, dummy half runner set off on a run and our defence still had their backs to the play. But I've been saying this for so long now its getting a bit daft.

Thank god Eastmond was in the stands.

I think one thing which let us down on par with our defence was our composure. Theres absolutely no point in doing something brilliant with the ball, to end up dropping it. Or throw it in touch. We seemed nervous almost.

For the foreseeable future I just can't see us beating them. Although they won by a mere 2 points, I still think they are a better side. And I certainly won't say we're making strides on them because I remember a particularly freezing cold night in March 2005 when we [ireally[/i did blow it.

Here's to hoping that Leeds topple them on Saturday if we are to progress ourselves. Otherwise unless there is major improvement in defence, can anyone honestly see us beating them in a final?

As much as I love the Wire, I'm not one of them.

Yes Paul, they'd be the ones. The ones who couldn't see the same move, 3 or 4 times in the same match, which has also been done by the same players for the past few years.
That's why I've said we've got to put our trust in them to get it right, next time we play Stains.

Bradford are a bag of unused cheap condoms this season, end of. Its not the likes of them, Hudds, Wakey or the Humber teams do I feel we need to start beating regularly to finally confirm we are a good team. Its Saints and Leeds.

Fair play to Wigan this year, but I was ten times more confident going to DW than I was hosting Saints at home on Saturday.

Im also not demanding we beat them, but this terrific position we find ourselves in with only a couple of rounds to go will count for very little if we crash and burn early doors. And I do believe that this 'little' mental edge that Leeds and especially Saints seem to have over us [iwill[/i count for something when we play them in a shat or bust game.

Yes, I can honestly see us beating them in a final. We are only talking about a small improvement.

That improvement being in relation to a problem we seem to have had for a long time though, unfortunately! I know, hand on heart, we can beat them Mark. Everybody does. But those silly little defensive issues need to be put to bed if we are to do so.

In a Final situation, and if we did play the callibre of Saints, every try they score needs to be a reward for their effort, not the result of our clumsy or lazy defence.

Sorry Mark, but Stains (at times) were way off the pace on Saturday, missing some big names. Nowt to stop them improving, too.

We need to raise our game BIG STYLE to beat a fully fit Stains side. No Eastmond, Gidley and a few others (yes I know Bridge, Higham and Grix were missing) missing. All big game players, who add lots to their game.

I'm still hopeful we CAN rise to their (and Leeds) level

I think it's important to make a clear distinction between people expressing baffled exasperation at our head-to-head record versus St Helens, and moaning at or criticising, the Warrington team this season. The handful of posters on this thread who’ve been accused of negativity have all made it abundantly clear that they feel that this is one of the best seasons in living memory and that the squad, coaching set-up and style of rugby being played is first rate. If you’ve read the posts properly, I think that is clear to all.

I don’t think we have a problem beating the big sides per se. I can always seeing us beating the likes of Wigan - and to a lesser, but still realistic extent - Leeds. However when it comes to Saints, something is badly wrong and it is clearly a mental rather than a physical challenge with the squad. I’m not going to dissect Saturday by saying we should have stopped Wellens busting through the middle time and time again or try and fathom why three passes sailed into touch. I just accept these and the various other gremlins that always creep into our performances against Saints as physical manifestations of our psychological inability to beat them.

It’s a real paradox for me because I know that we will beat Saints one day soon, whether it’s in a final or a regular season match, but it until it actually happens, I won’t believe that it can happen.

I agree that we’re only a fraction away from beating them every time we play them, but it just irks me that since 2007, excluding Wires, Wigan and Leeds, in league and cup, Saints have lost to the following sides (number of times in brackets):

Hull KR (4)
Catalans (4)
Hull (3)
Salford (2)
Wakefield (2)
Huddersfield (2)
Bradford (2)
Castleford (1)
Quins (1)

So going back less than four full seasons, that’s every single side in Super League beating Saints at least once in league or cup, except Wires and Crusaders (who are obviously only in their second season in the top tier). Let’s not forget that in every one of the above seasons, Saints have made the Grand Final, won two Challenge Cups and made the semi in the other two years, so it’s not like they were bobbins one year and there for the taking. God knows what the other team stats would be if I went back to 2001 or 1996, but it just illustrates that something happens to prevent us beating them - more than just bad luck or under-performance.

The reason that everyone else has beaten them is because even a champion side like Saints can’t play well every week. However when they play us, they always raise their game no matter what squad they put out and we either can’t match them or don’t believe we can beat them and that is a massive barrier to becoming a champion side ourselves.

There is a difference between identifying plays and having the players actually stop them. Did it ever cross your mind that those plays are just well executed? They don't just do it to us you know, they are good at it. If players started charging out of the line to stop it then they would just simply pass it round and go through the hole.

That had not occurred to us, Dude.

Thank you for summing up this seemingly complex subject so concisely.

Well now all this new information has come to light, I hope your satisfied.