We are doing what we need to do right now. Knock out rugby hasn't started yet so what are we all worrying about. We can mix it with the big boys, fact. Yes we've lost but we consistently come closer to all of the other 'big four' than we ever have done, certainly in the last few years.

Look at the season overall and ask yourselves this. When was the last time we can claim to having outplayed wigan twice, should have beaten saints twice and should have beaten Leeds once all in one season?????

Yes we've beaten one or two of them at times bu we've also had a good hiding of the others in the same seasons. This season we are more consistent and genuinely worry all teams we play.

Head up people, its only a matter of time! We can still win the two cups, only four teams currently can and, all being well, this time next week we'll be one of only two who can still do the double!!

I've just read through the 4 pages of posts again, and I'm shaking my head at the people who've said that some of the posts are moans. NO THEY'RE NOT. Without wanting to sound like Rafa Benitez, let's go through some FACTS.

1 win against Stains in God knows how many years. Smith has had 3 attempts at them now, 2 of them at home, and one of those was against a depleted side. FACT

To my knowledge, we've played Wigan, Stains and Leeds 12 times now, under Smith's management, with a return of 3 wins. As fantastic a coach that Smith is (and I believe he IS the best in Super League), that record is just not good enough. If we're going to win the 2 proper trophies available, the chances are, we are going to face these teams in cup games/knockout games.
As somebody said above, if Hudds hadn't beat Stains in last years semi, would we have got our hands on the cup??????
We've got to start beating these teams. Wigan, as results show, we can deal with. Stains and Leeds on the other hand......

With regards to loads of previous posts "if someone offered us second place and a semi, I'd rip their hand off...... Look where we've come from"...etc, etc....yes, we have made a massive improvement, but let's not forget, we are spending our full salary cap allowance, with Test quality players playing every week. Last season's league position was, quite frankly, a joke.
Yes, I know Smith had a lot of issues to deal with, but we should have finished a lot higher, with what players we had.

As fans, some of us need to stop burying our head's in the sand saying "oh, we'll beat Saints one day". Excuse me, but as soon as the ball is teed up when ever we play Stains, previous results go straight out of the window, it's the 80 minutes that matters, not a stat that Eddie, Stevo and Clarke regurgitate every 2 minutes we play them.

As I said before, not moans, these are facts that the club, players and coach need to deal with. We've got to start beating Leeds and Stains if we want trophies!!!!

I believe we have a fantastic squad, and as previously mentioned, the best coach in the league. In fact, in the 30+ years I've been watching the Wire, the only QUALITY coach we've had.

Oh, and by the way, Paul Younane, I am neither LWF or Cullen's Pants

LET'S DO THE DOUBLE

What should we do instead then?

errrr, not come out with vacuuous comments like "we'll beat 'em one day, we've got to". No we don't have to beat them, simply because the laws of probability say so.

Without stating the obvious, games are won by scoring more points than the oppostion, not blinkered optimism

So, what do we do instead, as asked above? We can't influence the result. Are we not supposed to be optimistic and hope that our team wins?

We simply put our trust in the people who are paid to deliver, i.e. players and coaching staff.

Nothing wrong in being optimistic, Carbon, but not to the extent that we're going to beat Stains because "we're due one"

Are these the coaching staff who in your own words can't see what an eleven year old can?

Although Im very proud of our progress this season (especially with consideration to last year), Saturday did confirm my worst fears.

I openly admitted before this game that we wouldn't beat them. On here aswell. Our defence again at crucial times is nowhere near good enough. Saints didn't have to do a great deal with the ball to gain enough points to win the game, it was their defence that won it. But its the same defensive lapses everytime we play them. I lost count of the amount of times that Saints had played the ball, dummy half runner set off on a run and our defence still had their backs to the play. But I've been saying this for so long now its getting a bit daft.

Thank god Eastmond was in the stands.

I think one thing which let us down on par with our defence was our composure. Theres absolutely no point in doing something brilliant with the ball, to end up dropping it. Or throw it in touch. We seemed nervous almost.

For the foreseeable future I just can't see us beating them. Although they won by a mere 2 points, I still think they are a better side. And I certainly won't say we're making strides on them because I remember a particularly freezing cold night in March 2005 when we [ireally[/i did blow it.

Here's to hoping that Leeds topple them on Saturday if we are to progress ourselves. Otherwise unless there is major improvement in defence, can anyone honestly see us beating them in a final?

As much as I love the Wire, I'm not one of them.

Yes Paul, they'd be the ones. The ones who couldn't see the same move, 3 or 4 times in the same match, which has also been done by the same players for the past few years.
That's why I've said we've got to put our trust in them to get it right, next time we play Stains.

Bradford are a bag of unused cheap condoms this season, end of. Its not the likes of them, Hudds, Wakey or the Humber teams do I feel we need to start beating regularly to finally confirm we are a good team. Its Saints and Leeds.

Fair play to Wigan this year, but I was ten times more confident going to DW than I was hosting Saints at home on Saturday.

Im also not demanding we beat them, but this terrific position we find ourselves in with only a couple of rounds to go will count for very little if we crash and burn early doors. And I do believe that this 'little' mental edge that Leeds and especially Saints seem to have over us [iwill[/i count for something when we play them in a shat or bust game.

Yes, I can honestly see us beating them in a final. We are only talking about a small improvement.

That improvement being in relation to a problem we seem to have had for a long time though, unfortunately! I know, hand on heart, we can beat them Mark. Everybody does. But those silly little defensive issues need to be put to bed if we are to do so.

In a Final situation, and if we did play the callibre of Saints, every try they score needs to be a reward for their effort, not the result of our clumsy or lazy defence.

Sorry Mark, but Stains (at times) were way off the pace on Saturday, missing some big names. Nowt to stop them improving, too.

We need to raise our game BIG STYLE to beat a fully fit Stains side. No Eastmond, Gidley and a few others (yes I know Bridge, Higham and Grix were missing) missing. All big game players, who add lots to their game.

I'm still hopeful we CAN rise to their (and Leeds) level

I think it's important to make a clear distinction between people expressing baffled exasperation at our head-to-head record versus St Helens, and moaning at or criticising, the Warrington team this season. The handful of posters on this thread who’ve been accused of negativity have all made it abundantly clear that they feel that this is one of the best seasons in living memory and that the squad, coaching set-up and style of rugby being played is first rate. If you’ve read the posts properly, I think that is clear to all.

I don’t think we have a problem beating the big sides per se. I can always seeing us beating the likes of Wigan - and to a lesser, but still realistic extent - Leeds. However when it comes to Saints, something is badly wrong and it is clearly a mental rather than a physical challenge with the squad. I’m not going to dissect Saturday by saying we should have stopped Wellens busting through the middle time and time again or try and fathom why three passes sailed into touch. I just accept these and the various other gremlins that always creep into our performances against Saints as physical manifestations of our psychological inability to beat them.

It’s a real paradox for me because I know that we will beat Saints one day soon, whether it’s in a final or a regular season match, but it until it actually happens, I won’t believe that it can happen.

I agree that we’re only a fraction away from beating them every time we play them, but it just irks me that since 2007, excluding Wires, Wigan and Leeds, in league and cup, Saints have lost to the following sides (number of times in brackets):

Hull KR (4)
Catalans (4)
Hull (3)
Salford (2)
Wakefield (2)
Huddersfield (2)
Bradford (2)
Castleford (1)
Quins (1)

So going back less than four full seasons, that’s every single side in Super League beating Saints at least once in league or cup, except Wires and Crusaders (who are obviously only in their second season in the top tier). Let’s not forget that in every one of the above seasons, Saints have made the Grand Final, won two Challenge Cups and made the semi in the other two years, so it’s not like they were bobbins one year and there for the taking. God knows what the other team stats would be if I went back to 2001 or 1996, but it just illustrates that something happens to prevent us beating them - more than just bad luck or under-performance.

The reason that everyone else has beaten them is because even a champion side like Saints can’t play well every week. However when they play us, they always raise their game no matter what squad they put out and we either can’t match them or don’t believe we can beat them and that is a massive barrier to becoming a champion side ourselves.