Realistically, the more factors you change, in a shorter period of time, the higher the risk of failure. Its one of the reasons super rich sports backers can't walze into clubs, buy all the best coaches, all the top players, and expect the club to win trophies above longer established clubs who make changes incrementally.

Whether you like Powell or not, no coach is likely to be able to get a good tune out of this team with so many changes in such a short space of time. Things could have gone better and may have with a different coach, who knows - we'll never know.

There's a reason why established teams such as Stains succeed; they make meaningful adjustments rather than root and branch changes. Unfortunately we haven't been in the position to do this as its well recognised that our club has been in a state of malaise for years. If we want the culture to change, then only a root and branch will do. Up until this season, let's be honest, we've underperformed and bottled it in 2 Challenge Cup Finals, 3 1st round playoffs, all to lesser resourced teams.

If people want these radical changes, they need to be realistic. If not, and were happy before, then people can still cherish those 2 Cup final losses and have a yearly toast around September to celebrate the good old days when we were getting knocked out in the first round of the playoffs.

I'm not saying it's been perfect either - far from it. I think there's some middle ground here in that Powell could have done better, but at the same time, people's expectations need to be tempered.

BTW, forgot mention that I really agree on the half back thing as well.

Interesting analysis and assumptions...sure Saints are the top team ATM but let's not forget they lost 5 Grand Finals on the bounce. They make adjustments by bringing in good recruits but also by developing and maintaining an excellent junior set up which played in Australia every year as part of their development. By comparison, until recently we were poor. Perhaps, hopefully our juniors will get the opportunities to move up to the first team and supported to develop, like Welsby has, rather than critised in the local rag and dropped.
You seem to suggest that to change a culture only root and branch of the playing group will do. I don't agree. The way Powell has gone about it has been a dangerous experiment and there is no evidence it will be successful. This could have been accomplished by a transition from old to new, instead he has given us a dispirited team, lacking in confidence with little or no leadership on and off the pitch. Sure we have new Aussi players coming in next year, how do we know they will adapt to life in Warrington, will accept Powell's coaching systems and make the team successful in the long term and not just give us a sugar rush before they retire and head off home leaving us scratching around for more players?
I want Warrington to be the top team, we need to stay in Super League which I expect we will.
We do however need a top coaching team able to get the best out of what we players we have. Isn't this what we were promised with Powell? What has been delivered, supporters cheering on Saints to beat Wakefield, cheering on HKR (who beat us last week) to beat Toulouse last night and the club pleading for supporters to cheer for the team.
It wasn't mean to be like this. We agree Gaz, we need root and branch change.
Of the coaching set up.

Anyone who does that can only have themselves to blame.

I think Saints & Wigan also have better & more focussed scouting procedures in place than ourselves .Those two clubs pick up the more dedicated & reliable old stagers & emerging nuggets ,where we tend to pick up the also rans ,excepting, by the looks of it ,young Mikaeli .

I won't be buying one

The first point, saints lost 5 finals to a top team in Leeds. Our lot lost our big games to 'inferior' sides.

When i say root and branch change, I'm referring to the job that I'm guessing Powell has been tasked with ie. To rid the club of complacency and improve our chances of success. Changing a new coaching setup, 3/4 of a year into their appointment, isn't a root and branch clear out - no roots have been given chance to grow. The root and branch bit is to re-establish club rules and attitudes (which have been poor) to correctly align with a club seeking long term success.

Without getting into the ins and outs again: unless you know a coach who would have nicely asked the players to stay for the full practice etc, and was able to persuade our perennial underachievers to get their s in gear, then we'd have the same problem now, but with a different coach.

I know if we'd tried to hire Shaun Wayne, he'd have had reservations, as he admitted the Wire coaching role was a big task, despite all our supposed quality players - I wonder why that is?

If we'd gone for another Mr Nicey like Price or Smith at the end of his reign, would the players have agreed to their privileges being taken away?

The board and the fans (it seems) had had enough of the players being treated with the Mr Nicey attitude. So apart from Powell and Wayne, who else should we have gone for?

Watson perhaps? But we know how well Hudds we're doing this time last year, and that was without all the changes we've made this year - so I'm guessing some would have wanted him gone by now too. Or do you think Watson would have added a few pretty pleases in front his requests to ask players to attend full training sessions. Or pretty, pretty please Coops, leave the undies for a bit later. Watson isn't a Mr nice guy, I think he'd have said the same thing as Powell or Wayne: my way or the highway.

So if Wayne or Watson (hypothetically) in this position, after being forced to move players on who wouldn't comply or were resistant to change, were to face similar challenges at this stage, whereby new players and new young players were having to be integrated into a performing side in such a short space of time, with low confidence: do you think they'd be doing much better? They may be marginally better or worse, but I can't see a sizable deviance. Perhaps no relegation battle would be par, and fair enough.

I think what im getting at is, whether Powell is the right or wrong choice, he or any other new manager needs to be given sufficient time to sort things including mistakes. It's a massive upheaval and it shouldn't be underestimated the size of the task given the changes in such a short period of time.

It's all my opinion, but I respect yours too Wolfhall and others who think a change could have been made a few weeks back. That's what makes these discussions so interesting.

I'd just like to add something that a poster mentioned a while back that; possibly the players didn't respect Powell from the very off because, in their eyes, he wasn't a successful coach. Therefore they weren't willing to take on board his new demands.

If that was the case, then good riddance to the players. Overpaid, underperforming, complacent players shouldn't be dictating the rules. They should be respecting the wishes of the club, board and fans who've had enough of players who seem to be on a virtual vacation since they've been here.

They also introduce their young players in incrementally which is crucial and ties in exactly with my point about making gradual changes in an ideal world to a successful side.

I don't or I wouldn't be backing Powell?? I think I've made it quite clear numerous times that I haven't been a fan of Price. A root and branch clear out and culture change is symbiotic between the coaches and players.

(Apologies for random responses, just a bit busy)

How should Powell have transitioned from old to new? - please explain?

The main problem for me is that we have a crazy player turnaround this season. If established, complacent players weren't accepting the new higher standards, then should they have stayed Wolfhall?.

..I take it you'll say no - let them go - or else we have the same complacent players at the club continuing to transcend a poor level of commitment.

I take it you'll say let them go. Therefore we have to get new players in and promote youth who aren't necessarily ready (bear in mind that the top clubs drip feed their players in if possible unless there's an injury crisis).

Realistically, any coach with this much player turmoil is going to be struggling. It's a brand new team being formed mid season. Honestly, we're you expecting much else?

I'm disappointed. Mistakes have been made by Powell. Even without mistakes though, it's one he'll of a challenging situation.

Like any other club importing NRL players, we don't really know and neither does Powell for sure - like any other coach.

Say at the start of the season, we'd brought in your ideal coaching team (whoever that is).

A question for you:

Given that the same clear out was made, as the same players refused to participate in the changing of standards and expectations, and your new coaching set up was having to mould a virtually new team throughout the season (ie this season), how long would you give them to prove themselves before making a change?

No wonder you're busy ha ha

By the way you can all relax, whilst I was quite TAKEN with MPN's lucky underpants idea I've managed to persuade 'lucky charm' Auntie Rico to attend this evening (well I just asked her if she fancied a night out to be fair..)

I'm sure she'll love it so fingers crossed on both counts, an unexpected Wire victory and a decent place to park as she'll no doubt be wearing inappropriate rugby spectating footwear

I would be happy with a narrow loss tonight, no injuries or suspensions then a full, committed side against Toulouse next week. Depriving Toulouse of two points is vital.