Thank you for the reply. The biological change is a good analogy. Small, individual, mutations causing successful heritable characteristics to be aggregated across successive generations. That's all good. Change is good. I get that.

But the argument seems diminished to "do nothing and wither" or "start a new RL team 3,400 miles away as this must be good, and if you don't agree you are a luddite". Is there not a less risky, more prudent method of introducing change and creating growth? After all the RFL has an exquisite record of failing to create a SL club even 34 miles outside of the traditional heartlands in 35 years of trying the "plant the lone seed approach".

On a point of clarity, RU had a hugely successful international game for as long as I can remember, which as a 44 year old, is back to the time when they were an amateur sport. The 4 nations started in 1883 then grew into 5 nations in the amateur period. The 5 nations was massive before and upto 1995 and the switch to professionalism. So this sort of questions the rationale that only a hard nosed commercial, professional organisation, can create a successful sport. Furthermore this expansion was based on the success of stand-alone, federated, national leagues in each of the nations. Not the implanting of a side in a non RU playing nation into the Aviva Rugby Premiership and hoping for the best. The international competition they have now is because of the strength of the game in the nations that are represented. Ground up.

Anyway, good debate. I think we all want what is best for the game to thrive and grow. Time will tell.

Some interesting posts on here. I am with psych casual and believe he makes some very good points. Unsure if it is mentioned else but don't loose sight of the de risking at play here in that Toronto are not being shoehorned straight into SuperLeague but will take min of 2 years to go there, thus allowing our game to either takeoff, show signs of taking off or be a disaster. Should the game go down well I think everyone is in agreement in that the typical Canadian sports will be interested by the physical side of the game and as long as they don't make us play it on ice like some of their other sports then all good . Comments such as we don't need change are very shortsighted and pressumably from members that enjoyed the traditional biff and less commercial side of the game but no matter what sport or business if you are not looking forward and taking some risks then you are destined for failure.

I agree the sport is confined to obscure irrelevant little towns (with the exception of Leeds, Manchester, Hull). But this is not because of choice, it's because RL is not a mainstream sport in the UK. It is far being Football, Cricket, RU. The game is just not that popular. I don't understand what the disconnect here is on understanding that? So genuinely, what is the overarching plan for the game's expansion to have teams from all over the world competing in an international Super league?

NRL is different in that it is the number 1 winter sport in certain areas of Australia. It's very popular. Like Football here. Did they achieve that by implanting a team 3,400 miles away or is there some other reason?

You are right I have not investigated the Toronto plans in any great detail and am basing my view on 1) the leadership capabilities of the RFL 2) Past experiences. 3) Common sense.

I must admit I liked the biff of the 80's game. However, I don't fit your model as I started and exited a lucrative tech business and appeared on a BBC2 TV show in the process. I am not sure what commercial aspect of RL there is to enjoy? Anyhow I have never once advocated that we do not need change. The game is stale and boring now, the question is what change is needed.

My question is this, what club from the rfl heartland has better potential than Toronto to be more of a success?

Do you mean what club in the heartlands that could have a larger fan base potential? None I should imagine, as Toronto, like London is a major world city. London is bigger, just think of all that untapped potential there.

Not in terms of fan Base,

To progress get into super league and not yo yo between the two leagues and become a viable sustainable club. Of the other expansion areas this one seems to have the better chance imo.

Superleague as a whole should be keeping a close eye on them and be willing to help a little in pre season games

They have games set up against Wigan and another SL club I think, we need to be on board also to maybe travel there to keep a good presence there

Could the wcc be played there in a magic weekend format or even the magic weekend, a bit of a stretch but I'm just shooting random ideas out there too. Super league is their goal by the look of the squad they have set up they won't be resting on their laurels too.

and isn't that the answer, as it would appear that someone in Toronto has the wherewithal, ambition and a plan to introduce professional Rugby League to Canada, whereas the professional game in London has had limited success in comparison to a reported thriving amateur scene which you would have thought would have transposed itself to a successful conclusion in your biological analogy?

By the way whilst I don't agree with your stance you made your points eloquently and I don't hold the view that Toronto's success will be inevitable rather that it is worth a try.

However, one error that I think you made in a previous post was stating that RU was an amateur sport, sure players may have had an amateur status during the period under consideration, but, by no means was the sport ran in an amateur fashion particularly at international level. In fact, I would suggest that they were closer to the "hard nosed professional business model" rather than the Heath Robinson make it up as you go along disorganisation that the term "amateur" can allude to

The ultimate goal would have to be a stand alone league in Canada which could also compete with SL & NRL teams if viable. Seeing as many Canadians are French speaking & of French origin a league in Canada could also help the development of more French sides to allow them to build there own league.

Just thought I'd point out, after your highlighted comment here, that Australia is more than 2000 miles across so distance clearly isn't that much of an issue. A quick measurement tells me it's 2087 miles between Townsville in Queensland and Auckland in New Zealand which both house NRL clubs, and if the West Coast Pirates get into the NRL it would be over 3000 miles between them and Auckland.

My view on this is why on earth would we not want Toronto to have a club? I can't say I'm very optimistic, but if people want to invest in trying then I'm very happy for them to go ahead! I think they'd probably be more likely to succeed if they did invest in, say, a Cumbrian team but if they wanted to do that they'd have done it already...

We can't stand still and do nothing, anyway, as we will only lose more and more players to RU and the NRL that way

I m guessing its nothing to do with having an international superleague at all. The RFL I suspect aren't that clever.

Lets face it though someone somewhere in fifa's or uefa's backrooms would love a "European super league" to have Barcelona madrid liverpool United PSG playing each other every week and NOT to have those pesky swedish or greek champions that no one has ever heard of in its top competition, it would be much simpler and much much bigger $$$

similarly if all of a sudden rugby league could become quite an international thing with teams from the north of England, south of France, Canada and xyz ?? playing in a lets be honest a slightly more glamorous looking league that would be great and we wouldn't have to focus on that grass roots nonsense and building from the ground up.

why do the NFL send teams to play over here? no one plays the game...NO ONE... stop it dont try and say they do !!!.... we aren't about to start a pro league up or get it played in Schools.... but it all gets very well received when the Alabama dolphin skins play the Las Vagas one armed bandits at wembley.....quite odd....quite odd indeed

or are the NFL desperate to be seen as a world sport rather than a sport played largely in the western half of the united states of America

anyway my point was i think (Toronto) is a profile push more than anything yes if it fails we might look bad for a while, but really does anyone remember the Scarborough pirates failure being front page news....
if it works even for a bit it will generate some interest if it launches a half decent Canadian league great.

I cant see anything wrong with it at all

I think even if Toronto wolfpack are a howling success & front page news in Canada that the British media will be hard pushed to give the move much oxygen over here & risk upsetting the Twickers gang.

They have their own leagues,have done for many years.

Yes ,i know. What i meant to put was "improve the quality of the French league".