Because he changes the ref's mind, perhaps?

Tony Smith suggested he intimidates refs and as we all know, Tony Smith is always right and not a mard a*se at all. Therefore, James Graham is a better player than Carvell as he can influence the ref in his team's favour. (Well, if you're going to be subjective in your measurement of what makes a good player - as opposed to considering stats - then influencing the ref, as your coach suggested he does, must be as good a feature as any for deciding whether a player is good)

never has the saying "takes one to know one" ever been quite so apt.

Strictly, subjectively is the only way to judge them. This is where Judderman seems to have become confused.

I think Gaz is better than James Graham and that is perfectly acceptable.

If we were to conduct a scientific test to certain criteria (but which ones?) then we would have a conclusive answer and would know the best to certain criteria.

However, we have no where near a scientific investigation. Number of minutes played, quality of opposition and injury during play (amongst many others) can all play a part in the stats of a player. I feel qualified to give an opinion as I have seen many Wire and Sts matches this year and have seen both players against separate opposition and against each other.

Although you were being obtuse, if you feel that that makes Graham the better player no one can categorically argue you are wrong.

HTH

Tomkins x 2 Raised in Wigan from an early age, Charnley, Deacon, Farrell, Prescott, Hock, Lockers, Tuson. Hansen, Mcllorum and Mossop all Wigan trained , could go on but it's too easy.

I was indeed being obtuse - deliberately so (too subtle for some it would seem). But while your point concerning subjectivity is valid, there are certain positions within the game of rugby league that can be measured more objectively, and prop is definitely one of those positions. The prop has a very clear primary function: to make metres for his team. Added value, such as an ability to step around the opposition or offload, are harder elements to measure objectively. But metres made and carries are much more indicative of a good prop than say of a good centre as a centre has other functions. (And I've said all that not because I don't think you know such things already but simply in an attempt to put forward my position)

Where I think Graham scores over Carvell is not in the subjective element but in his ability to offload, especially the pass just before a tackle. I think it is that element of his game which has attracted NRL attention. He can be a little too halfback like sometimes, but when those passes come off they quite often lead to a try just because they wrong foot the opposition.

I certainly agree with you to some extent and I am certainly not saying that Graham is a bad prop, an ordinary prop or a an above average prop. He is world class (as evidenced in his move to Australia). However, although not seeing as much of Graham last year as this year, I feel that Graham, as you say, is more ball player than prop now. For example, in the grand final last year he didn't turn up. The biggest game of the year and he was too busy shouting at the ref and making a fool of himself. He never got stuck in, like we all know he can. Also, I don't see much improvement from Graham. He was a one man team (always playing 80 mins) last year and he has been this year. He just doesn't look as hungry as he used to.

However, the main point being, and I have touched on it with the 80 min element, is that we can not gain a full picture of the role a prop plays as, unlike a hlaf back and a centre, they do not play a conventional role. To take it to the extreme, Feka at Wigan played for maybe 20 mins a game but he would make a great deal of metres and scored tries with ease in the opponents red zone. I know Feka was no where near the best at anything and obviously he had a major weakness of not BEING ABLE to play 80 mins.

Graham and CArvell ARE ABLE to play 80 mins (both have proven that recently.) However, Wire have Morley, Wood (another shout for best prop), Cooper/Harrison who all play any given week. Graham has had little in the way of cover for the past few years. He makes good yards because he is an amazing prop but also because he plays for so long. You may argue that in itself is a sign of him being the best prop in the league. I think it just shows hardiness. In other words he could be doing better for longer in his career if he plays less ATM.

My main points being as good as Graham is (which he is) he has major weaknesses and I feel his strength (stupidly high number of metres made) is massaged by his long shifts.

Carvell has been awesome for us all year, He is undoutably one of the top Props in SL. I think its pointless to say he's better than Graham,Lima, Peacock and Co or worse for that matter as Wire fans will have a more positive opinion on Carvell and Saints on Graham, Wigan on Lima Etc. Guess we could go on and on.

For Wire Carvell makes a very good call for the Best prop week in week out, we have another one in Wood that can also shout loud on that call and lets not forget that Morley is always lurking in there with one of the biuggest shouts on a rugby field there is. Harrison aint half bad at prop either.

Wigan Fans, saints fans and for that matter all fans will have their shouts fgor best players in a certain position and its usually a player from the side we support that we put first, what we all should be able to agree on is that it makes for a fantatsic, edge of your seat (if your in the seats) or tingling on your feet game every time we are blessed to watch this great sport of ours.

What a year this year is turning out to be, Come on lets have some more.

this ties in with my point about subjectiveness in the team.

However, I would like to say that last year I was quite adamant that Graham was the best prop in the league by a distance. He was week on week above everyone last year. However, I'd like to say how good it feels to say that Wire have two players that are rivalling Graham (in my humble opinion at least) for prop of the season.

I know the feeling of being top and feeling invincible. But Graham absolutely carries Saints, he is our pack. He has been for years. His workrate is phenomenal and he does everything. When the team needs a lift it's him, when the team needs a break, he makes it. He is sensational.

Carvell and Wood are quality props, both should be around the England squad but neither are a patch on Graham. You say he played well against you, your own coach said he dominated the game and was responsible for the fight back. He plays like that every game and has done for about 5 years.

Totally agree and why if I was a Saints' fan I would be terribly worried about what could happen next year.

The only thing to offer comfort is that in Laffranchi you have possibly the nearest like-for-like on the workload front in the whole of rugby league. A really great signing but he's a second-row fullstop, I'd imagine Puletua will be prop full-time next season.

Yup. It's the reason there is so much blind panic and dismay that we haven't signed anyone else so far. The likes of Griffin or Hill would have been ideal but seem to be slipping quietly to other clubs. Either Saints have got something signed that they're not announcing or they're doing something very silly with the cap spend.