That wasn’t rule bending, it was a deliberate inflicting of injury on an opponent. I can accept sneaking a few feet to bei offside and would probably resort to such tactics myself. However I could never accept deliberately injuring an opponent so that I could win, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. (I will confess to shouting “take his head off” at matches when I was a lot younger though).

I felt 2013 we lacked a mental toughness to batten down the hatches and see out the game was and still is a major issue.

We have no serial winners in our side we have good players and some very good players. Leeds had a pay structure that ment they could afford more better players and as a result they generally got the right players. They could pay a bit less because they offered a very good chance of grand final success...the type of player that silverware and success are just as important as the paychecks.

We are missing leaders and game breakers but I think they often have the attributes of what's described above. Someone that players look to for a bit of magic or when things are going tough. Nobody in our team seems capable of breaking momentum the wigan game once they got on top in the second half we had nobody who could stop them a few big hits a brake somthing to regain a foothold in the game.

When needed, in his pomp Moz was a game changer. Imaging the thoughts of the defensive line when seeing Moz steaming in their direction. I do not condone dirty play necessarily but I do suggest that to be able to intimidate the opposition is a strength. Coops and Hilly are terrific players but you don't see fear in the opposition eyes when they are marching forward. For me, BMM is a player that any opposition player will not enjoy facing. Apart from that Sita seems to have potential but his contribution to games is nowhere good enough and it will be no surprise to most if he were to leave at the end of the season. We need a bit of mungrel from somewhere.

You seem to have completely missed the point. I’ve no crusade for Patton.
Which is about the pack and/or pack selection. I’ll put your granny at 7 if we can get Taylor and Watts along with Hill and Cooper.
However the facts about Patton are there. I would recon Patton is only successful halfback, playing in the halves in the last 8 years....And on a fraction of the money of all the marquees.

Then we'll agree to disagree
Bar points difference, we almost won the league in 93/4 with one of the weakest packs in my watching lifetime
Perm any 6, from

Gary Tees
Gary Chambers
Dave Elliott
Rowland Phillips

the ageing Paul Cullen, Gary Sanderson, and with injuries aplenty, Mike Gregory

the almost decrepit (but great) Bob Jackson

and the comedic "talents" of Craig Tietzel and John Thursfield (who played every week.... more's the pity)

Add to this, our goto "super sub" Andy Bennett. As miaw alluded to earlier, its not exactly the touring Aussies of 82, is it.

I've just reread the thread, and it's not particularly the non replacement of Briers that is the problem, per se. Scrum halves come and go. For all the 2009 - 12 seasons he had with us, there were the bang average ones, the all right ones, the couldn't give a stiff ones, and his matey blokeish behaviour, shall we say.

No, the thing we've missed in my watching lifetime, is what Saddened and Sally have skirted with....
A LEADER OF MEN. Someone that the team's players will do anything for, although, I disagree with their examples (Peacock and Sculthorpe)

The two obvious ones for me, are Sinfield and O'Loughlin.

(imo) Neither of them are/were AMAZING players, but they are/were the heartbeat of their whole clubs (I know Sinfield was from Oldham) . From their teammates, down to the canteen staff, they got respect, and they inspired others to metaphorically[irun through brick walls [/i for them. They are serial winners, too.

The nearest we've had to that was Cullen. Cut him in two, and his blood will be P&B, but sadly, never a great player, didn't win that much, and not exactly a great coach. Other than that, there was Mike Gregory, who's commitment to the cause could NEVER be denied, and the longevity of Briers and Westwood.
I know we can't [imanufacture[/i such a player, but until we get one, we'll always be a step behind

Crazy to think we almost won the league - but then again we did have a great set of backs with the mercurial JD as well as Bateman, Foster and maybe Ellis/Mackey in the halves.
And the Wigan team were going rapidly downhill imploding with Dorahy even though they were packed with internationals. The Bradford team were blowing hot and cold all season.
And then there was that Wire Wigan game where we were robbed by the ref (Russell Smith?) ...... aaaarrrgggghhhh.

We did the same with Harvey Livett, came in for Currie had a handful of games and played well and got a 2 year year deal, and we haven't seen him since.

If we are talking leader of men then love him or loathe him I give you Andy Farrell, he did not suffer shirkers or 2nd best.

Aye farrell was a fantastic player, legend of the game.

Wigan won relatively little when Farrell was their leader. There wasn't much else around him. Although after he left, they completely fell into the abyss for a couple of years. Similar to what happened to us when Jonathan Davies left and a few months later we were rudderless and had the 80-0 disaster.

I think these winning teams need a core of about 4 to 5 players who are both very strong leaders but also very good players. Sometimes we can get too carried away with the narrative that we're one or two big leaders short, or that somebody who can stand and bark orders at players is what is needed. They need to be able to carry the respect of the team which also comes with being able to deliver themselves.

Now looking back at the TS era, I think the narrative of Leeds being in decline was overplayed. They still had their leadership group together till about 2015 and I would have swapped their squad for ours over that time just to have those players. It is probably not surprising that Leeds kept winning titles when people thought they were past their prime.

Agree with that Sally, you don't necessarily need a big personality to set standards on and off the field. You need a few to do it together and let the squad police itself to some extent.

I think the problem is that we don't know what Briers's role is. I would have thought he was taken on to coach our halves (1st team and youngsters coming through) being able to pass accurately off both sides, kick effectively and move the team around the field with authority and confidence. From what I've seen during his tenure it's not happening so don't know why he's there. I remember listening to him at a Q & A session before a game in the South Stand once. He was asked who is our most promising player coming through. He said "That's easy, Sam Wilde, he's going to be a superstar! (or something like that). I think he moved on to Widnes some 6 months later! Just saying!

Danny Orr is leaving Cas at the end of the year to - further his career. Wonder if he would be able to get our attack firing as an assistant...