A bit much to ask that...perhaps we should just work on 2 of them.

I agree with this. When sports fans take the macho attitude like "only the Grand Final is acceptable, anything else is failure" then they are set for a life of disappointment, especially if they support a team like Wire.

I think if this is your attitude you have to think hard about how much money you are going to spend on watching sport over your lifetime, how many seasons you are likely to be happy and how many you are likely to be frustrated and think is it really worth it. You're spending tons of money and tons of your leisure time on something that is only going to lead to stress and frustration.

The other thing that amuses me about this is that if these people held up a mirror to themselves and their own lives, are they relentless winners/achievers, who do everything it takes to find the edge to greatness in life? Are they Steve Jobs/Elon Musk type characters who reject sleep so they can be working on their latest entrepreneurial project in the early hours of the morning, fuelled by bulletproof coffees, so they can get an edge over their rivals. Or are they just average Joes in average jobs who work 9 till 5 then enjoy an evening down the pub or watching Netflix with takeaways, and then turn on this relentless second-place-is-nowhere mindset just when it comes to watching their sports team....

I'm not knocking average Joes because that is what I am. Also if I was having this conversation with Shaun Edwards / Ellery Hanley and they were saying no, second place is first loser etc I would at least find their mindset authentic. But it is curious that people are so keen to apply it to others when they wouldn't go near that mindset themselves....

Now I am not saying that we should all sit and clap and be happy about mediocrity and I have a lot of whinges about the club on this forum, you've all heard my moans about the recruitment, junior development over the past few years being substandard and probably most fans think the same.

But I think as a fan you can broaden your definition of success. For me it goes wider than just did you win the SL trophy and is about did the players achieve something above and beyond what you would have expected them to with their talent. Some of the most enjoyable seasons I have had as a Wire fan were not the ones where we won stuff. I really enjoyed the rollercoaster of 89/90 that finished with losing at Wembley. Probably my favourite ever Wire season is still 93/94 when we came so close to winning the league but you could look at guys like Greg Mackey, Kevin Ellis, Paul Cullen and say these were guys who you knew gave everything and stood for some values you want to associate with Wire. I got a similar feeling about Cullen's team of 2003 when they made the playoffs, with guys like Fozzard, Burns, Domic, Nat Wood. Those were hugely enjoyable seasons when I was proud of Wire.

Also although I have found 2019 frustrating I had the same feeling at Wembley. You have to respect winning a major trophy. This wasn't a team that is a well oiled machine made for greatness, there are a lot of holes in the line up in terms of quality and a lot of things wrong (hence the frustration). BUT the aim of the game is about winning major trophies, and these guys found a way to win. I've seen Wire sides before, especially in Grand Finals, who were superbly refined machines set up to win, but they found a way to lose the big game. This year was the total opposite. Now we went back to being crap again after that, but in that moment, when it counted most of all at Wembley, we beat a Saints team which is set up to be a winning machine and couldn't deal with us. That moment will last with me much longer than I will remember the frustration of our playoff loss and end of season form.

So, yes, 2019 for me was a season which has given me fulfilment as a Wire fan and I expect when I come to the end of my days and reflect on my favourite memories watching Wire there is going to be one from 2019 for sure.

Sally - surely if the CC Final win over Stains will go down as one of your favourite Wire memories then you should at least update your signature to reflect said win?

Liverpool, City, Utd fans all expect their team to be challenging to be the best because they have the resources to do so. Same for Warrington. I dont believe the average City fan is any more of a high achiever than Warrington fan yet the expectation holds. Ofcourse this expectation is fueled by the clubs custodians exclamations of what they are try to achieve. In truth is any Wire fan that far away from the CEO opinion?

I agree with the point on frustration though. There was no frustration in the 80s, 90, and pre HJ because we didnt expect to achieve anything.

From as early as Easter Monday the team hasn't been firing on all cylinders & but for a good start to the season we would have been in dire straits this year. Apart from Wembley, the team has been in terminal decline for at least half of the season through lack of Plan B, poor discipline ,poor handling etc etc. Take away Wembley & it has been a very poor season.

Probably would do. Would also like to see packs made to pack down so props hooker second row n loose. Would see a bit more adventure off the back of a scrum if the back line was not making up the scrum with the pack in defence!!!

Yep ... but can't you see that we are all too critical of our own team.
Go on other clubs' forums and you see the same thing.
Thousands of rugby league supporter would love to have a club like Wire to support.
I know how bad we have been but it's all to do with expectation. Salford expected beggar all ... therefore they feel good. Wigan expected to win all again ... they will feel less good.

Cheer up ... at the moment you must be happier than Leeds, Wigan, Hull & remember Bradford.

Liverpool is a good analogy here. Like you say, they expect to be challenging, but they aren't taking an approach with Klopp of 'second place is failure, win in 2019/20 or sack him'. They realise that whilst they have good resources, their rivals like City and United can match their resource power too.

Which is like us - I could understand the 'second best is nowhere' attitude if we were on a different level to Saints, Wigan, etc but we are subject to the same salary cap as they are. The way some people talk about us needing to win SL because of our supposedly huge financial advantage should look at the evidence of who we are actually signing. In 2019, we made one big signing, Blake Austin - ONE! When you saw us signing the likes of Jason Clark, Lama Tasi, Matt Davis, Danny Walker, did you think wow with all this firepower we are going to blow the opposition away. It's obvious with those kind of signings that we face recruitment constraints.

Good spot I haven't looked at my signature for years.

The whole 'League Champions' thing in there seems unnecessarily pompous but hey.

My source of annoyance ,Smiffy, is not that we haven't reached OT , it's the way we have been so one dimensional that we have capitulated in so many games & given away a 12 point lead over the nearest club below us in the table. Obviously ,Saints have been out of sight for months, but other clubs below us have improved while we have deteriorated.

This is surely correct.

I think Fitzgerald is quoted as saying we don't have a second marquee signing on our books at the moment. If correct then how are we spending the money as our squad has looked thin this year with a lack of quality in too many positions.

To answer your question no i didnt think that. Our recruitment has been a mixed bag as is our ability to extract value for money from existing players.

In answer to the point about Klopp, LFC fans could see progress as Klopp is one of the best managers in world football. Do you think the same of Price?

Theres a season upon season improvement at Liverpool and I would add that the sporting director has been just as influential as klopp in delivering the successes we have had. He has built a team and structure to aide klopp in being successful he has also done some good business!!!

No, but what you have said there is the standard that matters - do we see progress, rather than 'he has to win the Grand Final in 2020 or its time to go'.

I think with every coach there is a tipping point where things change from the club progressing under him, to stagnating and slipping backwards. But it sometimes gets lost in the variability of results. Sometimes the team can be on a bad run, but still moving in the right direction overall (eg the early part of Price's first season), other times the team can be on a good run that masks stagnation (eg the early part of 2016 when Sandow was at his peak).

With hindsight I think we could say that with TS, there was a tipping point maybe around mid to late 2015. With Cullen it was mid 2006, around the time we lost to Hull KR in the Cup. With Darryl Van de Velde it was early in 2000. With Brian Johnson it was around the time we lost the Regal Trophy in 1995. In each case I think that was the time we would have benefited from a change.

The big question is are we at (or even past) that point now with Price.

Leeds didn't waste time wondering with Furner and admitted their error so if Price is not the right man KF should have the conkers to correct matters