Tomkins
Charnley
Gelling
Sarginson
Williams
Smith
Flower
Bateman
Farrell

Hardly a team of journeymen mate

This is more like the discussion i can agree with and be part of. My point was that the Wigan game last week wasn't particularly important, yes it was a bit embarrassing, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't the worst thing we've seen or the worst we've felt like some are suggesting. It wasn't a final or even a semi-final, it was just game 29 of 30 in the season just like Hull KR was just one game in July when the same thing happened.

However, the trend that we're seeing here is a big one!

After building a lead through positive, determined, exciting play we relax too much, lose that determination and change the way we play which leads to us switching off through losing concentration and our whole intensity drops.

Because intensity is built, once you lose it, it's hard [almost impossible] to regain especially late in games.

This is an extremely poor attitude to have as a team and a coaching staff. For it to have happened a number of times through different squads of players yet the same coach means it is a fault of Tony Smith. You'd think, even just this season (never mind the times it's happened in previous seasons) that, after Hull KR away when they had 12 men and we had a lead with two minutes to go and we drew, we would not allow that to happen again this season under any circumstances. But it did!

But that's also what i meant with last week being a blessing in disguise because it might have been the game that really highlighted this problem of Smith's to the board. If it happened in 2011 with Hodgson JMonaghan King Atkins Briers Morley MMonaghan Carvell LAnderson Grix Westwood Cooper Wood and Solomona when we were one of the best teams i've ever seen watching this sport, playing some of the best rugby i've ever seen...and it's still happening with a different line-up of Ratchford Atkins Gidley Sandow Hill Clark Sims Currie Hughes Westerman and Westwood (nowhere near as good a team, granted!) then it can't be the group of players, it has to be an attutide that comes from the coach. Look at what he did when we were 14 points up last week, he took off our two best players Hill and Clark as he thought we'd won the game - but the game isn't won until the final hooter. and then we went and lost our third best player Currie to injury, so that's three of our best players off, our coach thinking the game was won and we lost our intensity and couldn't regain it and we lost.

I think this has to be the final nail for Smith. We've seen that he's made mistakes in the past and we've said he should be given the opportunity to rectify them but he's not rectifying this one is he? He lost sight of the state of the squad after our good 2009-2013 team came to its end. In the Winter of 2012 i think he signed one player, in the Winter of 2013 he didn't sign a single player and in the Winter of 2014 he only signed a few players including Asotasi. That's when we saw Morley Briers Carvell Wood Solomona MKing LAnderson MMonaghan Cooper Hodgson etc all leave the club. How can someone allow the squad to fall that far back? That's poor foresight and poor management.

He got his shock through the realisation of our drop in quality and we started to make good signings again since with Clark Westerman Gidley and Sandow so to a certain extent he rectified that mistake. But he's not rectifying the blasé attitude he puts onto us when we get a lead in a big game. And for that i think it's time for him to go!

It looks negligent in retrospect doesn't it.

I think the over reliance on our youth system was a big mistake. We all know Warrington's youth system has a well established track record of poor delivery of top quality players for whatever reasons of management, catchment area etc.

Hill needed a break as he played straight up until then. This is a symptom. The cause is that he is our only decent prop forward.

Clarke was sensational. In fact more than that Clarke was the only one who looked like he could break the line. We had one game plan A) Scoot for half back and target behind the ruck. When he went off so did our attacking threat.

Great post, I agree with you although I feel this shows a weak bench. No disrespect to the younger lads as they have done well for us when they have played but I think the bench has been light all year hill and sims don't have adequate cover, George King has done a job and improved a lot this year but our main issue is that we have had too much of our cover injured throughout the season. We are weakened too much when our interchanges are on, I believe a fit Mitchell dodds and Ryan Bailey would have made a huge difference to us but can we rely on them to be available? I would also discount the 2013 Grand final here, that was for the same reason in terms of cover but our bench was reduced in numbers in that match due to certain tactics.

If this season has highlighted anything to me it's that you can't carry unfit players in your salary cap and small squad, I feel sorry for the likes of wheeler and Ben Evans but if they aren't ever available then they can't be an effective part of the squad and the money should be used elsewhere. We need to address the interchange badly and especially in the forwards, on paper we have the personnel but they haven't been available. I think we need 4 props that we can rely on being fit for the majority of the season. Bailey I would give another year as he has done well for me when he has played and although I don't know what he is paid I expect he has been pretty cost effective. I hope Ben Harrison is good to go for next year and if dodds recovers then him too, but I feel with those 3 we are asking for another season being short of cover. It's not just forwards, we have been unlucky with injuries in many aspects but we need to be able to handle them better like some of our rivals have.

I think we still have a chance this season but it depends on which bodies will be back in contention next week and if we get to old Trafford the week after as well.

"I think this has to be the final nail for Smith. We've seen that he's made mistakes in the past and we've said he should be given the opportunity to rectify them but he's not rectifying this one is he? He lost sight of the state of the squad after our good 2009-2013 team came to its end. In the Winter of 2012 i think he signed one player, in the Winter of 2013 he didn't sign a single player and in the Winter of 2014 he only signed a few players including Asotasi. That's when we saw Morley Briers Carvell Wood Solomona MKing LAnderson MMonaghan Cooper Hodgson etc all leave the club. How can someone allow the squad to fall that far back? That's poor foresight and poor management.

He got his shock through the realisation of our drop in quality and we started to make good signings again since with Clark Westerman Gidley and Sandow so to a certain extent he rectified that mistake. But he's not rectifying the blasé attitude he puts onto us when we get a lead in a big game. And for that i think it's time for him to go!"

Yes it was poor management to not replace the loss of quality players with others. We did have an over reliance on youth players coming through. But not being too close to the board at Warrington, how do we know that this wasn't a direction from the Warrington board, and the then Chief Exec, Andy Gatcliffe? He did a good job taking the hard up club into a new stadium and stabilising the finances of the club. However, the directors wanted more for the club and brought in Roger Draper with the brief to grow the profile, increase attendances, and to make the club the number 1 in SL.. The recruitment policy appeared to changed then, is that just a coincidence? Possibly, as I said earlier I am not close enough to the facts.
There seems to be loss of impetus on the Under 19s who finished 9th in their league this year. There are a small number of youngsters coming through but nothing like the Wigans, Leeds and Saints. Is this a deliberate policy or again poor management. Who has the ultimate responsibility for deciding on our recruitment policy through all the age ranges? TS will have a big say, but who makes the final decision? Until we know that we can all criticise TS for getting it wrong, but is it his sole responsibility?

Yes were are weak on the bench. Mind you we only have ourselves to blame with management decisions and recruitment.

Ben Harrison - we knew he was out for 2016 - has to be a risk after his layoff and injury record. Can we rely on him for 2017?
Bailey - injured on signing - again has to be a risk with his injuries, age etc. Can we rely on him for 2017?
Dodds - injured on signing, it was unfortunate and his broken leg was not caused by his previous injuries from Australia.
Westwood - a bad injury this year and his best days are behind him. He still shines in our pack when he comes on but that says more about the pack.
Cox - Last chance saloon gamble after Peacock got rid at Hull KR.

Our mitigation for next year is lamentably

Cooper
Matty Blyth.

Because of this I would not renew Dodds. I would use the money to go after a replacement from Aus without the history. Too much risk. We are going to burn Hill out.

I agree, we will definitely be stronger with Cooper coming in. The Cox and Bailey signings probably showed that it was known we were lacking in forwards but those acquisitions unfortunately haven't solved the issue, although as I mentioned earlier I have been quite happy with what I have seen from Bailey.

Recruitment is always going to be difficult due to available cap space, lack of available players and competition for signings from other clubs here and abroad where they have a higher cap.

Wow. I mean don't get me wrong I hate Wigan. And I mean really hate them but as a lover of rugby league to say all those players are just club standard is unbelievable. Tomkins, Charnley, Gelling, Williams and Bateman especially.

That's your opinion though and everyone is entitled to one I guess.

Of course there is the cap and competition to consider. We need to plan on having 5 quality props, get rid of the injury prone or those not up to standard, and make good offers, in time to our targets. Not having Hill, Sims and 5 others with question marks. The panic buying of Bailey and Cox was an example of lack of planning and risk management.

I agree with you Bailey has been decent - when he is available for selection.

Wow too. My view of the comparison based on current form

Tomkins >> Ratchford
Charnley >> Matty Russel
Gelling > Toby King
Sarginson = Ryan Atkins
Williams > Gidley
Smith > Patton
Flower = Sims
Bateman = Currie
Farrell >> Hughes

I agree with you Wires71 apart from Farrell.

Hughes is 10x the player Farrell is and gets through more work. he also does the little 1% things that go un-noticed. Don't get me wrong Farrell is a top back rower but for me Hughes has already surpassed him.

No way

sound