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My initial point by the way was more about certain Wire fans trying to preach they are the model youth club when in reality as later stated your only just starting to look at that talent pool as your first port of fall for back up players. Which is great and will he good to see how the likes of Currie, Evans and O'Brien (not sure he'd be first choice half at us but still quality and would most sides outside playoffs).

Warrington's first 13 would have what Riley maybe Harrison who count as home grown in the lineup? So still a way to go but still good progress. Leeds, Saints and Wigan have showed that powerful youth production is the main guarantee of sustained success. Tony Smith now seems to have took this view / been instructed too.

Makes the new academy changes even more ridiculous!
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Quote: Redchemic "Well yes, that's what it should be about but in reality, after all this time in SL I'd have thought your 17 would include a lot more of your academy products. I'd say 4/5 of your regular 17 are home grown? We're in the position of having to play them along with a greater percentage of 'signings' due to our recent history.

We've put a lot of effort into youth ourselves and we have 1st team regulars who are youth development products and that's after not having the 'pick' of the youth in the game due to being out of SL for so long.

Oh, also I'd say out of Listers list of non starters for you, I'd say there were just as many Widnes academy players as there were Wire www.squadbuilder.co.uk:1883.jpg
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Quote: Redchemic "^ J20

Pretty much what I was getting at. Don't get me wrong, Wire look like they now have a great youth set up to complement a great first team but it's my opinion that your youth, considering the resources you now have at your disposal should be making greater inroads into your 1st team. Currie does indeed look like the real dal.

I take your point about where you were in 2001 but that is nowhere compared to where we've been yet we are producing/have produced more SL 1st team regulars than you have and arguably an equal amount of your own 1st team as you have!!'"


You are confirming Ian 77's point. Widnes will gave a greater number of youth products for fiscal reasons. To assemble a SL squad, Widnes, like all newcomers will have to pay over the odds to get players with SL experience. inevitably, this will lead to a lesser sum of money to develop the squad depth. As has been alluded to above, I don't see any Academy products in the 17 stated.
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.......................besides, it's fair to say right now that it's easier to get into the Widnes starting 17 than into Wire's.
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Quote: Paul Youane "Redchemic - maybe I'm missing the point in what you are saying but I'm pretty sure not one of the above is a product of Widnes' Academy'"


That is VLV's preferred 17. I would counter that Craven, Owens & Gerrard will get more gametime this year on top the exposure they had last season (there is an argument that Paddy Flynn who has significant 1st team exposure could be classed as a youth product). Furthermore we have added Hulme, Gilmore & Lawton to the squad and I'd expect to see them feature when necessary this season.

Quote: Paul Youane "You are confirming Ian 77's point. Widnes will gave a greater number of youth products for fiscal reasons. To assemble a SL squad, Widnes, like all newcomers will have to pay over the odds to get players with SL experience. inevitably, this will lead to a lesser sum of money to develop the squad depth. As has been alluded to above, I don't see any Academy products in the 17 stated.'"


^ see above re

See above icon_smile.gif
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Quote: Redchemic "That is VLV's preferred 17. I would counter that Craven, Owens & Gerrard will get more gametime this year on top the exposure they had last season (there is an argument that Paddy Flynn who has significant 1st team exposure could be classed as a youth product). Furthermore we have added Hulme, Gilmore & Lawton to the squad and I'd expect to see them feature when necessary this season.
'"


To be fair you can't have it both ways. A couple of pages back when it was being suggested that the same players you are now claiming to be first teamers were first teamers it was yourself who was claiming they weren't (isn't Gerrard a product of Wigan's Academy anyway?).

Anyway I enjoyed the day out. I thought it was the most enjoyable Boxing Day fixture for some year. Probably helped by Warrington only going with a 17 man squad against Widnes' 19 man squad plus a game.

I hope the two Widnes players with non-contact related ankle injuries are ok obviously such injuries are in no way related to the i(njury)-pitch.
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All this arguing about who is and who isn't in the first team squad, and yet nobody has mentioned anything about the fact that the Chemics played 6 overseas players in a friendly. that doesn't seem to me to be a club that has at least half a dozen young players who are ready for first team rugby.
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Quote: Paul Youane "To be fair you can't have it both ways. A couple of pages back when it was being suggested that the same players you are now claiming to be first teamers were first teamers it was yourself who was claiming they weren't (isn't Gerrard a product of Wigan's Academy anyway?).

Anyway I enjoyed the day out. I thought it was the most enjoyable Boxing Day fixture for some year. Probably helped by Warrington only going with a 17 man squad against Widnes' 19 man squad plus a game.

I hope the two Widnes players with non-contact related ankle injuries are ok obviously such injuries are in no way related to the i(njury)-pitch.'"


Not sure I follow Paul. I've simply stated that we are giving youth more of a go than yourselves.....not sure on Gerrard, you could be right but as he's young and has been at Widnes for a few years I just assumed. The lads mentioned have earned the right to play 1st team and by and large they are youth products of Widnes.

Just checked, Gerrard came to Widnes from Hindley Giants. He's been with us since he was 16/17.

Glad you enjoyed the day

Quote: Paul Youane "All this arguing about who is and who isn't in the first team squad, and yet nobody has mentioned anything about the fact that the Chemics played 6 overseas players in a friendly. that doesn't seem to me to be a club that has at least half a dozen young players who are ready for first team rugby.'"

If you can be bothered looking back, you'll see there are a number of British players who were missing from our line up. Most of the young lads aren't just ready, they've already been there.
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Quote: Redchemic "
Quote: Redchemic "Redchemic - maybe I'm missing the point in what you are saying but I'm pretty sure not one of the above is a product of Widnes' Academy'"


That is VLV's preferred 17. I would counter that Craven, Owens & Gerrard will get more gametime this year on top the exposure they had last season (there is an argument that Paddy Flynn who has significant 1st team exposure could be classed as a youth product). Furthermore we have added Hulme, Gilmore & Lawton to the squad and I'd expect to see them feature when necessary this season.

Quote: Redchemic "You are confirming Ian 77's point. Widnes will gave a greater number of youth products for fiscal reasons. To assemble a SL squad, Widnes, like all newcomers will have to pay over the odds to get players with SL experience. inevitably, this will lead to a lesser sum of money to develop the squad depth. As has been alluded to above, I don't see any Academy products in the 17 stated.'"


^ see above re

See above
It was my preferred 17, maybe craven would make it over mellor. However would you seriously argue the case that in our current situation you'd prefer Owens and gerrard in your starting 17 instead of who I chose? I'd find it difficult.

Jack Owens has only played fullback. We have Shaun briscoe, if he is injured like last year 99% of the time phelps would cover that position.
Although gerrard is young and come through the academy, I would Definately currently favour Davies, cross, pickersgill and ocarroll
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What I'm saying is we are giving our academy products their chance as they are good enough to be given a go rather than signing experienced players en masse. We saw on Boxing Day that Wire have some excellent young lads so I guess I'm a little mystified as to why they need so many 'old' stagers

I'd find a place for Craven every week and Gerrard is good enough to do the job when called upon. I'd go with Phelps at centre and Owens to cover Briscoe WHEN he's out injured icon_wink.gif .
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Quote: Redchemic "Not sure I follow Paul. I've simply stated that we are giving youth more of a go than yourselves.....not sure on Gerrard, you could be right but as he's young and has been at Widnes for a few years I just assumed. The lads mentioned have earned the right to play 1st team and by and large they are youth products of Widnes.

Just checked, Gerrard came to Widnes from Hindley Giants. He's been with us since he was 16/17.

Glad you enjoyed the day

If you can be bothered looking back, you'll see there are a number of British players who were missing from our line up. Most of the young lads aren't just ready, they've already been there.'"

So if they're ready, why play the journeymen overseas players?
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Going round in circles here. You can't (as you probably well know) throw kids in en masse as they would get physically hammered without the aid of older pro's. This is why I can't understand why your young lads aren't given more of a go. You have the perfect opportunity as your kids appear good enough to be blended in to such an experienced team.
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Quote: Redchemic " What my point is though, regardless of what fiscal constraints each club find themselves tied by, the club (not just Wire, although you are perhaps more active in this area) should be giving youth its chance rather than throwing the cash at seasoned pro's. Granted it's bought you short term success but as a number of your players are getting a bit long in the tooth, my view is that the youth should be given more game time in order to prepare them to fill the older players boots rather than just throwing more cash at old pro's.'"


How much cash have Wire ' [ithrown at old pros[/i' in recent years? We've extended a few contracts, mostly for players like Morley and Westwood who've been at the club for years already, but with the exception of Trent Waterhouse we have signed no-one new over 30 for a long time. Riley, Williams, Evans, Dwyer, O'Brien, Currie, Cooper, and Blythe have all come through the youth development process and made genuine first-team starts in a team currently riding high, where competition for places is very tough. It's a good thing that Widnes are backing youth, but my point remains that it's easier for a young player to get into a mid-lower ranking team than into a top one with senior ( but by no means old ) players already well established.
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