Gaz is the mature leader of the team recently.
Graham is a petulant child who moans for 40 mins if he doesn't get his own way.

Has the skill and drive (at times to be the best) I see Gaz as a better play than Graham and I have nothing against Graham, as he has a lotof talent.

Metres ... Graham 3003, Carvell 1689.
Carries.... Graham 424, Carvell. 224
Tackles.... Graham 494. Carvell. 439
Busts....... Graham 23. Carvell 12
Missed tackles .... Graham. 13. Carvell 21
Penalties. .... Graham 10 Carvell 15.

Forgot about the wire fans yardstick, Graham moans a lot, so Carvell is the "best prop in super league", apologises.

I gave you a good reason. Don't be flippant.

MY criteria for a good player is not the most metres made, but the effect their performance has on the team and having watched both players more than a couple of times this season I can state that I think Gaz provides more for Wire than Graham does at Saints.

Although I must admit he was very good when playing at the HJ.

I am not a fan of stats. The main reason being that they can easily be manipulation. For example, you don't know how many minutes Graham has played this year compared to Gaz. I would wager it is many many more.

Having seen both I can make a fair assessment. My opinion is that Carvell is, at the moment, the better player and is certainly the more mature player.

We can differ on our opinions. I am not wrong though. When Carvell has the ball, anywhere on the pitch, you know now that he will get 10 or more metres on his run. That is something I don't think Graham always provides, I have seen instances where he is more obsessed with changing the refs mind than lifting his team. How he came to be captain of Sts I do not know.

Because he changes the ref's mind, perhaps?

Tony Smith suggested he intimidates refs and as we all know, Tony Smith is always right and not a mard a*se at all. Therefore, James Graham is a better player than Carvell as he can influence the ref in his team's favour. (Well, if you're going to be subjective in your measurement of what makes a good player - as opposed to considering stats - then influencing the ref, as your coach suggested he does, must be as good a feature as any for deciding whether a player is good)

never has the saying "takes one to know one" ever been quite so apt.

Tomkins x 2 Raised in Wigan from an early age, Charnley, Deacon, Farrell, Prescott, Hock, Lockers, Tuson. Hansen, Mcllorum and Mossop all Wigan trained , could go on but it's too easy.

I was indeed being obtuse - deliberately so (too subtle for some it would seem). But while your point concerning subjectivity is valid, there are certain positions within the game of rugby league that can be measured more objectively, and prop is definitely one of those positions. The prop has a very clear primary function: to make metres for his team. Added value, such as an ability to step around the opposition or offload, are harder elements to measure objectively. But metres made and carries are much more indicative of a good prop than say of a good centre as a centre has other functions. (And I've said all that not because I don't think you know such things already but simply in an attempt to put forward my position)

Where I think Graham scores over Carvell is not in the subjective element but in his ability to offload, especially the pass just before a tackle. I think it is that element of his game which has attracted NRL attention. He can be a little too halfback like sometimes, but when those passes come off they quite often lead to a try just because they wrong foot the opposition.

Carvell has been awesome for us all year, He is undoutably one of the top Props in SL. I think its pointless to say he's better than Graham,Lima, Peacock and Co or worse for that matter as Wire fans will have a more positive opinion on Carvell and Saints on Graham, Wigan on Lima Etc. Guess we could go on and on.

For Wire Carvell makes a very good call for the Best prop week in week out, we have another one in Wood that can also shout loud on that call and lets not forget that Morley is always lurking in there with one of the biuggest shouts on a rugby field there is. Harrison aint half bad at prop either.

Wigan Fans, saints fans and for that matter all fans will have their shouts fgor best players in a certain position and its usually a player from the side we support that we put first, what we all should be able to agree on is that it makes for a fantatsic, edge of your seat (if your in the seats) or tingling on your feet game every time we are blessed to watch this great sport of ours.

What a year this year is turning out to be, Come on lets have some more.

this ties in with my point about subjectiveness in the team.

However, I would like to say that last year I was quite adamant that Graham was the best prop in the league by a distance. He was week on week above everyone last year. However, I'd like to say how good it feels to say that Wire have two players that are rivalling Graham (in my humble opinion at least) for prop of the season.

I know the feeling of being top and feeling invincible. But Graham absolutely carries Saints, he is our pack. He has been for years. His workrate is phenomenal and he does everything. When the team needs a lift it's him, when the team needs a break, he makes it. He is sensational.

Carvell and Wood are quality props, both should be around the England squad but neither are a patch on Graham. You say he played well against you, your own coach said he dominated the game and was responsible for the fight back. He plays like that every game and has done for about 5 years.

Totally agree and why if I was a Saints' fan I would be terribly worried about what could happen next year.

The only thing to offer comfort is that in Laffranchi you have possibly the nearest like-for-like on the workload front in the whole of rugby league. A really great signing but he's a second-row fullstop, I'd imagine Puletua will be prop full-time next season.

Yup. It's the reason there is so much blind panic and dismay that we haven't signed anyone else so far. The likes of Griffin or Hill would have been ideal but seem to be slipping quietly to other clubs. Either Saints have got something signed that they're not announcing or they're doing something very silly with the cap spend.