I don't think we are in decline really because if you look at our team on paper it's still a top 4/5 team definitely. Atm we are just lacking confidence and guidance - it's evident in our current position.

I'd say we are in a period of stagnation as opposed to a decline, growth has stunted through poor recruitment meaning that we've had to put young players into key positions - especially the backs. Once the younger players develop and mature (or we make some good signings) I'd say we'll be back challenging for honours.

A fresh approach by new staff maybe just what the team needs.

How many of these 'Saints in decline' claimants had tipped Saints for a huge season?

They were widely tipped in the media as likely to finish in positions 1 or 2.

They have hugely underperformed this year and Simmons has paid the price for that, but with the exception of the (admittedly huge) loss of Graham, you could argue that on paper the team is stronger than the team who only just missed out on being champions last year.

I think this season will be a write off, as Rush and Cunningham don't have the experience to get the side challenging for trophies, but with an experienced coach at the helm (and one who is able to decide upon his best team) they'll be in as good a position as any to challenge for silverware.

I would certainly agree that saints (on their day) can beat any team and probably should, team and personel availabke, be in every competuition to win.

However you raise an interesting point. 3 years ago it was between leeds and sts for first and then two years ago a dramatic win at cas won you second in the league, last year you settled for third and this year people are hoping for 4/5 place. I'd argue that is textbook decline.

If we take trophies, saints haven't won one in... 3 years is it? Seems like decline from the 2005 era.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm taking saints lightly, as much as I joke about them struggling to make the 8, but they haven't improved in years and, on paper, have gotten worse.

It could be transition or maybe other teams have gotten better and saints have made mistakes but they look weaker this year than last and than the one before.

As I said above: we still have a good team on paper; we are just lacking guidance and confidence.

In fairness, there's only one way you can go from the season in 2006. We won the lot, and would probably have added the Grand National, Boat Race and X Factor had we bothered to enter them.

For us to truly have declined, I'd say we'd have to go from a team that can challenge for trophies to one which cannot. While I fear that our abysmal start to the season, and lack of experienced coaching staff, makes it unlikely we'll challenge this year, I think the true test is whether we are back in the mix next year. If we are still struggling to make an impact on the competition, I'll concede it's a decline.

A one season blip doesn't make a decline, just as a one off trophy win doesn't herald the start of an era.

You say it yourself though: other teams have got better and that's why we have gone trophy-less since 2008. The likes of Warrington, Wigan, Huddersfield and Catalans are now amongst the top clubs; it's no longer just Saints and Leeds or Saints and Bradford, so that added competition has made it difficult to maintain a top two league spot. I don't think that league position is evidence of a decline as such, but more evidence of the league (at the top) becoming closer.

It's not all bad though as we have the likes of Gaskell (not ready yet), Lomax (played out of position), Makinson (best of the lot) and Wheeler (development stunted through constant injury) all coming through establishing themselves as first team players - that's why we aren't in decline and are in a state of stagnation IMO. They've been thrown in the deep-end and it paid of last year as their enthusiasm got us all the way to the GF, yet a run of poor performances and their confidence is shattered this season.

I'd be willing to argue all day with any idiot who suggests that a team with a half-back partnership of Gaskell/Loma/Holidayhiho (perm any 2 from the 3) is better than one with Pryce/Eastmond as half-backs.

You think Eastmond and Pryce were our halfbacks last year?

Oh sorry my mistake I thought Pryce and Eastmond were both St Helens players last season.

They were on the roster, of course they were, but featured to the smallest degree and, particularly in the case of Eastmond, any impact they made was largely negative.

We are not missing Pryce and Eastmond this year because, simply, we never had them as a partnership to miss.

No it doesn't

should`nt of sacked him he was doing a super job with a really average team..would`nt be surprised if they beat leeds this weekend tho...