I suppose finishing in the middle 8s will provide a few jobs at the HJ (temporary at least) to cope with the rush for 2018 season tickets.

To me being in the middle 8's would be more like missing out on the old style playoffs... It wouldn't be the same as not playing in the top flight.

After all you can't play the eventual champions of the league home and away and have someone say you played in a lower league. ..

That said it's hugely embarrassing for the club.

For the only team to never have played outside the top flight. I like to throw that about occasionally to remind our bighead "greatest RL team" neighbours.

The '140 years of top flight rugby'/'never outside the top flight' comment is an interesting one, and needs a bit of correction and clarification.

Firstly, we should be clear that the club has not had '140 years of top flight rugby' - mainly because, in the context in which this comment is meant, that is impossible. When the club was formed in 1876 there were no competitive league (or cup) fixtures. The club played local (minor) clubs in self-arranged friendlies for the first few seasons, and gradually over the next decade or so the standing of these opponents rose, as the prominence of Warrington did too.

The Lancashire RFU was slow in starting competitive games, so the sub-union in West Lancashire took up the task. A cup comp was first (as was the case in most forms of football at the time), and it wasn't until 1889 that a league (the West Lancashire League) was started. Whilst very localised I would argue this was a 'top flight' competition, including as it did not only the best teams in the area, but clubs that would continue to be prominent through the evolving competitions that followed, such as Wigan, Saints & Widnes.

However, for the next 2 seasons, Warrington elected not to compete in this league - so they actually gave up their top flight status almost at the first opportunity!! They did re-join league football in 1892 when the county-wide Lancashire First Class Competition was started. The club then obviously joined the Northern Union in 1895, were in the group of teams that split to form the Northern Rugby Football League in 1901, and played in the first division through the periods when two or more divisions were in situ in the three eras this has been seen (1902-5, 1962-4, 1973 onwards).

An important point to note though is that the club did not play in the war-time league from 1940 for a period of 4 years, after Wilderspool was requisitioned for the war effort.

All this makes the claim slightly tenuous - as a result of the spell out during the war, there are a few teams (I can't remember off the top of my head exactly, but IIRC Wigan & Leeds) who have played more seasons in the top division than us. Both have of course played outside the top flight - Wigan once in the post-1973 era, and Leeds way back at the start of the last century.

As for the middle 8s standing, it's an interesting one viewed from a historical & statistical context. It's viewed as a seperate competition statistically, as tries count towards a player's record, but do not count as 'Super League' tries, unlike those scored in the Super 8s. It's most akin to an elongated relegation play-off, as used to be played pre first world war, when the bottom club of one division would play the top club of another forthe higher status.

Given all this, there's an argument both ways, as has been made above. Interesting, the split is quite familiar, with the typically 'glass half full' folk arguing we lose our record, and the optimists saying it doesn't matter!

FWIW, I don't judge it affects our slightly spurious claim either, as you can just continue to twist it to make it even more tenuous, but still hold. So if you changed the wording to be that 'we have never started a season outside the top flight', or that 'every season we have played competitive football we have competed in the top flight', both statements are factually correct.

That said, whilst it's an interesting debate, I think we're missing all missing the point: it's not going to happen anyway

Wow
I refer the honourable gentleman to the statement I referred to earlier.

Surely such a debacle to our season would spark enough indignation to fuel a winter of discontent on the forum.
For many fans the idea is unthinkable & is giving me an attack of the vapours as i write ,but for a so called progressive business & "forward thinking" club with tickets to sell & sponsors to please such a lowly finish,for whatever reason,just isn't good enough.
Pass my spray,please !

Has anyone else noticed that our best rugby has played when Poaching was Tony's No.2? When Poaching was at KR that's when their best Rugby was being played (Obviously barring last season). Now he's at Salford and they're playing their best rugby.

Coincidence? Or is Agar in fact dragging the club down? I wouldn't like to think that Tony Smith would idly sit by whilst Agar coached the team in a sub-standard manner. but could it be the assistant has more input than we would like to think?

Discuss.

I would hope the club reviews all a aspects of its business to establish how it can improve. The playing side should include all aspects of coaching, fitness and conditioning, all of which could be improved. We are not playing the good attractive rugby which excites the crowds, and the fitness and especially the conditioning this season is a worry - look at how many hamstring injuries we have had so far.
Another area is player recruitment, other teams seem to pick up good quality players at reasonable cost whereas we have been burned by high cost especially oversees players who have either not contributed or have not been fit enough.
Junior recruitment is an area where we seem to punch below our weight. It has improved recently with a number of good local boys coming through but clubs like Wigan, Saints, Leeds have a more successful system.
I think we have a lot right, the facilities and player welfare are improved,
Coming back to coaching, top teams do refresh on a regular basis. Even though Ferguson was at United for many years he cycled a number of top class coaches working under him bringing in fresh and new ideas. So perhaps Agar and Smith need changing, however, if it was me it wouldn't be both at the same time. Get a new team under Smith, improve the coaching, fitness and conditioning team, player recruitment and junior development.

Aren't you putting Smith on a pedestal there ? He has recruited all these substandard assistants who are not doing the biz with the players.

Agar is the main coach on training...following the huge barrage of unhappy fans in 2015, TS took the heat of Agar by dumping the suit for T'shirts and a tracky.
TS still handles the team the same, just that we now see TS wearing training kits and sipping water to look hands on.

You mention we get a lot right, I'm interested in how we would score us out of 10 in these areas :

1) Results
2) Playing style.
3) Resilience and winning attitude.
4) Effectiveness of recruitment
5) Development of young players
6) Squad balance and succession planning.
7) Fitness
Injury rehabilitation
9) Training facilities
10) Player welfare / HR
11) Rugby Management Structure

You don't give a time frame for my view to your exam questions. At the moment I would say 6 out of 10 overall in my uninformed position. Give me a week of full access to the club and I would give you a different answer possibly.
All good companies review their performance and no doubt Warrington do too. We tend to get decent marks from RL reviews but there will be areas we can improve.
For me key areas requiring strengthening are coaching, all aspects of Under 19's and Reserves, recruitment.

Perhaps you could give us your markings out of 10 for your own questions?

OK fair enough. From a purely outsider point of view

1) Results - 3.3/10 to reflect our P12 W4.

2) Playing style - 4/10 - some nice flashes in the last 2 games but we are dull in the main. We have one 5th tackle option which is a kick to the corner. A throwback to the Briers/King/Monaghan days. We top the error charts across the entire league which may indicate we are playing fast exciting rugby like Cas, but when you see we have the 3rd lowest tries scored it paints a dismal picture.

3) Resilience and winning attitude - 5/10 we did show spirit against Widnes, Hudds and Wakefield to not "lose". Not sure this translates into a winning culture of excellence. Confidence appears brittle.

4) Effectiveness of recruitment - 2/10. Squad appears low on quality in key areas. I dispute this "high quality squad on paper" argument. Too many are just bang average. Sims, Cooper, Hughes, Evans, Dyer, G King and the like. Halfback pairing perfunctory at best. Would question value for money on certain signings which have gobbled up the cap. Heavily dependent on certain players who when they are missing from the side it shows (Ratchford, Clarke, Hill).

5) Development of young players - 5/10. Some positives with Currie, Patton and Philbin, maybe Livett but nowhere near Wigan and Leeds who would score a 10.

6) Squad balance and succession planning 5/10 - Never recovered from the mass exodus of Briers, Morley, Carvel, Hodgson, Monaghan for me. No enforcer and I don't think Hill is the motivational and inspiring style of captain we need (compare to Sinfield/O'Loughlin). No out and out pace across the side.

7) Fitness 9/10 - I don't think we have looked like we are blowing any more than any other team.

Injury rehabilitation - 4/10 - Bit of a worry. We have had 2 players (King and Westerman) who were out injured, returned and are out again with same injury (King - Hamstring, Westerman - Neck). King is 10 weeks out from an injury in training.

9) Training facilities - 10/10 - No excuses here from what we are told. Warm weather training and trips to Australia every 2 years.

10) Player welfare / HR - ? / 10. Don't know. We seem to be sympathetic and understanding of players in times of need and allow players to prepare for a time after RL (Hill and plumbing business etc). But there do seem to be "favourites".

11) Rugby Management Structure - 7/10 In experience with Briers, and I cannot overlook the coincidence of Agar and our rank playing style. But Smith is seasoned and one of 3 coaches in SL who has won a SL GF as coach and was coach during our best spell in a generation 2010-12.

Would agree, semi agree with most of that analysis.
So how do we improve on the poor areas starting with those that would have the biggest effect soonest?
2 and 3 will look after 1 so unless we have super coach already lined up to slot in right now we need the present coaches with the team to do what has been achieved in the past. Meanwhile develop the other areas which need improving. A lot of players off contract at the end of the season, the succession plan with the slightly inflated salary cap and Marquee Player allowance could be used. Young player development is a mystery to me, we seem to be behind a number of other clubs, don't understand why, that's why I suggested a review. Are we too choosy, offer poor contracts, got a bad name, just don't know. We need tomorrow's future stars queueing up for us. How do we do that?

I think you'll be ok for top 8, the news on Johnstone's injury is a big blow for Wakey, and I now expect them to join Huddersfield, Widnes and Leigh in the middle 8.