Sibbit played in the second row for about six years when he was at Salford and he didn't pull up any trees. It's not like he was old and washed either, I think he was 24 when he left us. If he had really been a good second rower he would have done it then.

Compare to Westwood, who spent the first five years of his career being played at centre/wing at Wakefield and with us. Cullen put him in the back row and his career took off. No lasting damage for him through being played in the outside backs.

There's always an excuse for some players, about how unlucky they were, how badly they were treated at Wire, could have been a great if only....

We never had excuses for Grix and Bridge - both of whom had to deal with bad injuries, and were shunted around different positions. You could easily have had stories saying "this lad had all the talent in the world, but Wire ruined him by never letting him settle in a position", but they weren't needed, because like Westwood, they were quality players, whereas guys like Sibbit, Livett were no more than average SL standard.

Livett showed promise in the beginning, as a youngster came in and played some good games. But he had 50 games for us plus time at Hull KR and in that time he’s never shown enough to suggest to me he is good enough to be a starting back rower for a club with final aspirations.

He’s a good utility and I agree could play a good role off the bench, but he’s 23, he’s going to want / need games where he has a chance as a starting regular.

We have shown in the past if a player is good enough he will get the game time, Currie, King, Philbin all had plenty of game time and have proven to the club they are good enough to make themselves a regular in the 17.. Even those that haven’t made it, Patton, Livett, George King etc have had plenty of time and opportunity to stake a claim, but never made it.

Wigan and Saints have plenty of Livetts & Pattons coming through too, they get chances and eventually the coaching staff decide they’re not quite going to reach the level that they expect of a first choice player. See the likes of Burke, Hampshire, Swift, Matty Ashurst and many more. Difference is Wigan and Saints produce them in much greater numbers, so there is more of an acceptance when one has to move on to make way for the next Livett / Patton off the production line.

We need to be producing more Livetts and more Kings / Philbins to compete with the top clubs. We always seem to put things in place, Paul Anderson as coach for the U19’s I’m sure is a big investment and we constantly hear about us throwing money at young Wigan/Leeds/Saints youngsters to get them here. The frustrating thing is it takes time to see whether what you have put in place is making a real difference, it takes years to show what the results have been. Wigan & Saints know what they are doing and they will keep doing it and fine tuning it. We seem to rip things up and start again every 3-4 years.

We need more kids playing the game in Warrington to make that pyramid of players bigger. That seems to be improving to me, when I was playing 25 years ago I think there was only 1 team in the town at my age group for much of it. At my sons age there are Latchford, Woolston, Crosfields, Culcheth, Bank Quay, Burtonwood and Rylands, youth development is just slow to materialise and goes against the clubs usual method of chuck some money at it to see improvements. Of course it needs investment, but it’s more the processes that are put in to place that will deliver.

I don’t think the issue is the club not playing these players in the first team, the problem is their identification and development. If they aren’t good enough, the coach has to look externally for signings. Which is what we have done as a club for 20 years.

Great Post, spot on. If they're good enough we keep them, simple. Young players have to take their opportunities, see matty Ashton, thewlis, longstaff and Dean when they played.

How many of our youngsters have moved on to teams that are competing the finals? I can only think of rhys Williams and tyke and that's in a Salford side that punched well above its weight under a fantastic head coach. We aren't failing the academy emergers IMO, lots of them have had a lot of game time, the trouble comes to when they come to the end of their first contract and we have to decide whether they will be good enough to be starters or need to move on. Importantly we aren't losing the better ones like King, Currie and Philbin to our closest rivals either so we must be doing something right.

Brad Dwyer.

Another player not good enough to hold down a starting place for us, right decision for Dwyer and us for him to move on. We’ve had more players recently move on to other clubs, but I don’t think I’d regret any of them leaving in the past ten years - other than Cooper, who came back anyway. Patton and Livett will be two more, we’re getting better in that regard, but a long way to go.

Dwyer isnt doing anything at Leeds he didn't do here, run around a lot like a headless chicken, looks busy and energetic, doesnt do a huge amount

Whilst we have Darryl Clark we can't really afford too much cap space for a reserve hooker that may not even make the bench some weeks. We were right not to offer him a new (bigger) contract at the time, for both us and him. I'm glad he is doing alright at a good club though, he's a hard worker and seems a good lad.

Other than Harris and Sculthorpe, I can't think of any player who has left us who I have really regretted having left, unless you count Cooper who returned.

Mike Wainwright was one who we shouldn't have let go, he improved when he went to Salford and he was better than the second rowers we had at the time. When he came back he was a good player in his second spell. DVDV didn't seem to get the best out of him so it was probably better that he spent that time away.

Other than that, like most on here I had some personal favourites that I didn't want to leave:

Dave Highton: A young Highton looked really good, he had a lot of energy at hooker and was tough as well. I remember an early game he played when there was a massive brawl at Wigan and he was getting stuck in to guys like David Furner and Terry O'Connor. I thought, this lad is hard and not afraid of anything. Unfortunately he failed a drugs test and got sacked, and injury ended his career a few years later.

Paul Noone: I had really high hopes for him, I thought he would be a GB international. He did quite well for us for a while and then looked like he was on the verge of breaking out into something really good and then a couple of injuries disrupted him. When he came back, Westwood had moved into the back row and Noone was on the outer, and he seemed to fall out of favour with Cullen. But after he left he never did anything that suggested Cullen was wrong.

Kevin Penny: I preferred him to Riley, even though Riley was more polished coming through, as he had extra pace and was more exciting and I thought he would hurt teams more than Riley would. But the team was better when Riley replaced him, and after he left, he never did anything to make us regret it. It was nice to get him back for a while, like Toa's return it gave some closure after the way they left the first time.

Rhys Evans: He looked really promising when he came in to the side, injuries seemed to do for him. I used to think our fans gave him a lot of unfair stick, but over time you had to accept that he had gone backwards and there was no sign of things changing. I think TS had a lot of faith in Evans as he persevered with him for a long time. I was sad when Evans left but he became a lower league player after he left - which he probably was for his last year or so with us.

Gareth O'Brien: I would have preferred us to keep him around in the squad and think he was slightly better than Patton in the halves. But his best form came after he left at fullback and he wouldn't have displaced Ratchford. For his career it was better than he left because he got to be a starter elsewhere, but he's not the type of player to interest the top teams.

He did enough in 2020 to win a Challenge Cup Medal.

Ricky bibey has 2 of them

Andy Farrell’s dad. You’d think he’d be able to spot a good player wouldn’t you?

Livett was offered a 3 yr contract with Hull KR in April of this year, but Salford being nearer home and as you say the economics for a young lad paying out rent / bills / and other expenditure out of his low wage was a no brainer when Ian Watson came in for him in May. This contract was a done deal back then and with regards to not much game time for HKR, TS explained in his interviews he needed to roate the players that were staying not leaving..hence Livett not much on the scene, same as Brierley and a few others. Alot of the youngsters over the years, such as johnson, wilde, moran, smith... all these were exceptional players in the U19s and Briers raved about them as a team... they jump to SL and are used as and when required and given no explanations when they are dropped. No player welfare what so ever is involved. Lets hope all these lads kick on and get the chance they all deserves elsewhere as we all know our club isnt the best or blooding the young..

You've got me thinking who I'd class as our best signings over the last 3 years.

Cooper
Austin
Hiku (skillwise, not blaming anyone for the home sick card)
Goodwin
Charnley
Ashton?

Widdop and GI are huge names to we have signed too, performances aside. Wonder if this is the scouting team or commercial teams who sanction/initiate these signings.

I'll say that Cooper & Charnley were known to be decent. Ashton score 10 billion tries in 20 games for Swinton so credit to getting that acquisition done rather than scouting (maybe a little harsh)

Where are Johnson, Wilde, Smith & Moran now?

Were they exceptional players? Or were they good for their age group? It's one thing a player looking good in a group consisting of players between the age of 17-20, it's a whole different aspect them proving themselves against players aged 17 - 37.

I think Blake Austin has to be a good signing. He needs a playmaker with him. Is being asked to create with the ball & virtually do all the kicking. He is a runner. His form (when he first came with all the tries & top of man of steel until injury) ... was as good as can be expected from any signing. Not many/no half-backs are outstanding every game and I think we expect so much from him.