London has been a major success, just not at pro level!

We can say exactly the same thing about London.

It's not apathy it's just that people prefer to do other things than watch RL. We need to face facts - RL just isn't that popular. Probably about 120K people who watch live in the North any given weekend. I think some people on here think not going to the game is like missing out on the Beatles reforming or something.

London has been a success to an extent and for it to progress sustainably a club must emerge organically and not be shoe horned into super league just because it's in London.

A few hundred extra fans every home game would be huge for a lot of clubs outside of super league.

And if rugby league has gone as far as it can then looking abroad is the next option anyway,

It's funny that if successfull toronto could draw more viewing figures than all of the UK clubs in the future....

Playing Devil's Advocate should Toronto not do the same?

It should, and it is, isn't it?

Exactly.

These clubs have been around for well over a century and are still and always will be small lower league clubs because cannot entice investors and fans because their populations are tiny.

And i can say the same for SL clubs. Wigan laud themsleves as "the biggest club in rugby league" yet they get about 15000 fans and share that ground with a football team who are smalltime in their sport but are ones who call the shots in that town. This is hardly the minerals of 120+ years of building a giant club whose atendances burst at the seams and are a club with a big worldwide profile is it? Wigan are still just a parochial little sports club from a little town. And what does that say for the rest of us?

Our sport is crying out for the likes of Canada to have a league to match the NRL because the mighty clubs of Northern England aren't anywhere near making SL that! and it's about time our parochial little mindsets realised this n'all. This is, i reckon, the last real opportunity to push this sport to a wider scale and get ourselves out of this rut we've been in for a few deacades. If we don't go all out for this as a sport we are destined to just be the Gaelic football of England - no profile outside of a few little Northern towns.

To continue the philosophical discussion - what would be wrong with this? A small passionately supported sport, where players are local and approachable, still affordable to the common man with manageable wage bills? Or do we need to follow the way of football?

Exactly i see no problem with being a well supported regional sport. Hurling, Gaelic football and afl don't waste their time and money constantly trying to be something they're not and never will be. The major finals of all of those sports draw huge crowds everytime. Ramp up what we have to make our major events top drawer, couldnt give a monkeys how much more exposure union gets as long as what we get to see of our game is passionate, exciting and good quality.

In all honesty it is only in the last 20 or so years where Rugby League has realised it is a stand alone business that has to make a profit to survive. For many years clubs were treated as glorified social clubs for chairmen & their cronies in the belief that local working men would turn out to support their club on matchdays. Alternative entertainment wasn't considered a threat to attendances until it was too late & seven day working is also stopping people from turning out.

Frankly, I don't see why we should allow the game to be played outside the heartlands. We have a gem of a game that is a joy to watch, so why should we share it with other regions and countries ? It cannot be beyond the wit of the RFL legal eagles to simply patent the game and prevent it being played elsewhere.

And here is another idea - why do we allow the game to be sold to Sky. People now simply refuse to get off their sofas and come down to the ground. It seems obvious to me that the only reason our attendance are falling are due to Sky TV. Drop the television rights, increase attendances and get the fans back to the sport. Now I realise that we will get a bit less cash, but what is wrong with paying the players a bit less and getting them to take part time jobs. It works in the Championship, and if clubs like York, Salford, Bradford are struggling financially it's clearly due to poor management and they don't deserve to play the game in their area.

Back in the 1950's Warrington were getting big big crowds. In places like Leigh and Huddersfield the teams were drafted mainly from the mining community where the lads would go down the pit in the morning and then play a game in the afternoon - Saturday afternoon by the way, not Thursday night. What happened to that golden era and why do we always have to make changes rather than staying the way we were.

Brilliant ideas!!

The other thing that could help boost crowds is to stop playing the sport for five or six years, you know like they had to during WW2. The sport's starved post war crowds were at their peak in the late 1940's early 50's and we as a club were on top form then? Halcyon days indeed

With this in mind am I the only one heartened by Donald Trump as the President elect and leader of the free world? His appointment of Mad Dog what's his Face as Defence Secretary is a master stroke. Our cousins from across the pond are doing their bit, so come on Boris never mind Brexit, give Mad Dog a call, kick it off big style let's get RL back on it's feet

It would be more useful to the discussion if you addressed the "Why" question rather than being facetious. Paint me inaccurately as a "traditionalists stuck in the mud type" if you wish. I am happy for RL to be played on the moon if people want that, I just don't want to see another failed top tier expansion attempt (London, Paris, Gateshead).

I am assuming you have a well reasoned opinion on matters expansion (rather than just blindly following the rhetoric) so let's try again and see if you could answer "Why does the RL feel it is so important to have the game of RL played in as many locations as possible, whereas other comparable minority sports governing bodies do not - and what is the penalty of the "do nothing" option"

There is no 'do nothing option'. Never has been. From a biological pov you would not be here reading this if our genes did not constantly mutate and produce different adaptions that were suitable for our changing climatic and environmental conditions. From an intellectual pov all businesses have to adapt constantly to change - newspaper print is dying out (Daily Mail lost 12% advertising revenue last year) and is moving to the web. Tesco lost market share to low cost rivals because they were too slow to respond to change in buying habits. Even the most rigid institutions based on dogma have to change and adapt to new social environment, so the church now allows women bishops and is rather more tolerant towards homosexuality. Black cabs are peed off because of a new ap that allows anyone to call a taxi, my dad is disgusted to learn that he will not be able to use cheques in the near future, islamic extremists are a major threat in our cities and Russia is once again threatening the West with military action in Europe. Everything is in constant flux and the speed at which change happens is increasing rapidly.

It's ironic that Rugby Union (in this country) has had an inferior product to league for many years. What they have done however, is to expand across the world and build a strong international competition that brings in millions of pounds ( 4 home internationals at 80, 000 crowd each and ?? £30 min ticket price). That means the sport is very well funded to provide for youth development, increased advertising, increased international development, recruitment of RL stars etc. They are slowly squeezing RL out. Unless we do something similar we will be back to semi-professional rugby, which means lower standards of rugby league and a diminishing number of kids playing the game and supporters watching it. Toronto being successful is a tall order, but every chance we have to spread the game, showcase it and publicise it, is a valuable opportunity. It will be a long spiral of decline if we do nothing.

Do you know why three of our top overseas players have just decided to quit Super League without explanation over the past few weeks? That's the "do nothing" option.

You might be onto something there. Alternatively we could declare independence for the M62 region and opt out of the UK, thereby avoiding world war 3 and conscription. RL would be the only sport played around the world and we would be cashed up from the TV rights. I reckon all the taxes we would save could fund a much better NHS and we could re-open many of the clog factories that have been cruelly closed down. We would have to stop immigration as most Londoners will be heading up here, but I reckon a big wall north of Watford Gap should do it.

It's funny, but when you think about it there are some really simple solutions to many of the problems we face. It's just amazing that nobody has ever tried them before.