This is the difference between simple management, as opposed to leadership though, isn't it? A great manager is one who knows the technical details to a high degree and gets his staff to execute what they've been taught/shown, to maintain a high standard (which in sport is consistently winning). Leadership is different in that you need to create change outside the norm. For example, you're behind on the scoreboard after an unfair decision to award a try to the other team. The team now needs to raise a gear and overcome adversity to gat back in front. A manager in the stands can't just tell people to do that, you need a leader on the field who goes out there and shows how it's done, putting their body on the line, making bigger hits, an extra strong run, a last ditch try-saver when they're out on their feet. Inspiring the troops to follow their lead.

It's the interesting the point you make about whether we see much of that in the modern game though, because do we see much of that in society as a whole? Without drifting into politics, take a look at current global issues like the pandemic and climate change. We have a lot of talkers telling us what we should be doing, without leading by example and doing anything themselves. In the pandemic we saw top scientific experts, celebrities and politicians telling us to lock down, wear masks etc for we are 'Covidiots', yet they themselves get caught breaking the rules. With climate change we've got all these nature-lovers and film stars telling us we are at "one-minute to midnight" and need to change our energy consumption drastically. Not seen any of them give up their own luxury houses, nice cars or holidays in the sun though!

So yes, maybe there aren't many modern day 'leaders' for us all to be inspired by.

Those stats are a damning indictment. That '13 GF. A disgrace we lost that, after being 16-2 ahead. The moment Monaghan got injured, our players just stood, individually. Tomkins went and spoke to virtually everyone of his side. They neve looked back, from that moment on. The most frustrating game of my watching lifetime. We were like the proverbial rabbits in headlights

I reckon losing Ratchford as well might have made a bit of a difference.
I can't remember who ended up at FB and Wing. Very frustrating.

We should've been able to cope with the loss of a winger, when we had a 14 point lead.
Losing Ratchford was the final nail in the coffin. The game was gone, bar miracles, by then. We were literally"dead men walking"

I too, can't remember who filled those positions. Didn't we have 4 forwards on the bench?

I seem to remember Ratchford being more significant as a loss than Monaghan. But then my coping strategy after the game may have affected my recollection. You see, I was very, very drunk.

The mind plays tricks Lefty. We were winning 16-12 in the 50th minute when Ratchford got injured ... so the game was far from gone. We did indeed have 4 forwards on the bench. Losing two outside backs with half and hour to go is a tough ask in my book.

True. We did still have the lead when Ratchford got injured, but we were shell shocked at half time, never mind the second half, THAT'S where we missed a Gregory/Sinfield/Farrell/Edwards.

Bar Morley's obvious qualities, he always struck me as someone who was more suited to improving himself, week on week, rather than his team. Maybe he had his own set of very high standards, and thought everyone was as driven as him. Sadly, individuals aren't, and they needed that on-field leadership.

Back on thread, rather than that one match, maybe the game was spoiled (in a nice way) by having such TEAM leaders as I mentioned earlier. I say this as a lifelong Manchester City fan. Vincent Kompany embodied such qualities, but he left two and a half years ago, and the captaincy has been passed around through various hands, since. Despite City still winning stuff, I can see the lack of a LEADER is showing. Proper leaders are few and far between.

As I said earlier in the thread, we currently have a team of varying abilities. There's no one that's [ia leader of men. [/i

Ratchford being selected ahead of a fully fit brett Hodgson was one of the main reasons we lost that grand final and I still haven't forgiven Smith for it!

I suppose we've drifted a bit from the original thread.

Cooper is the only established member of the squad I can think of that is fairly cool-headed and unflappable. My only reservation would be the question of why he hasn't been selected as leader in the past. It always seemed to be Ratchford who took over when Hughes or Hill were off the field. I guess we don't know the players like the coaches do, so maybe Powell just needs a bit of time working with them in pre-season before deciding who will get the role.

Who was Shenton's vice-captain at Cas? McShane? Since Powell himself was a half-back, maybe he'll prefer a 'little general' like Widdop who will have the responsibility of guiding the troops round the park.

We are tending to pick successful captains of successful clubs. In reality there will have been loads of good captains (and Coaches) at clubs who have been less successful. Some blokes just inspire, encourage, are positive and are a pleasure to play with. It is the joy of the game. Wire will have had plenty of good 'uns.

Captains for me are players who both the standard for the rest of the team and hold other to account for falling below that. Farrell and Sculthorpe could do almost every aspect of the game better than their peers, including negotiating with referees and engaging in ‘lively debate’ with fist-wielding Australians.

Morley had an aura, he was just so strong both mentally and physically, but he couldn’t kick a winning drop goal from 40 yards like the above. Cameron Smith had the master manipulator role to a tee, he was almost player coach at times.

But, I would have to pick either Scully or Farrell. Genuine top class players and great leaders

So as I started this thread I thought I'd make a few observations.

There are - and have been - very few top notch captains. I don't want to use the word outstanding because by its very definition it lends itself to reducing the field to a few.

Farrell and Sinfield in recent times, maybe Sculthorpe
Gregory and Edwardes earlier, and then the likes of Bath, Murphy. (Maybe this is just reflective of the demographic).

So when posters decry a particular player who happens to be captain I don't think it's particularly helpful.
Top notch captains are few and far between and they are quite often surrounded a core of top class performers who undoubtedly have an input.

I don't think many teams - including Warrington - have that.

I'd love to ask DP for his take on this.