Totally agree with you..give me Lomax anyday..he's only here cos Wigan wouldn't cave in to his over inflated wage demands..earn your money or do one

Probably true, few weeks back Sky were running a draw to give 3000 tickets away for the Grand final, then it disappeared and not seen anything to say why. Maybe it’s been decided it’s not a good look for Catalan to be in the show piece final.

Williams has been trying his nuts off all season without a half back partner. Stick Drinkwater in any of the other top 6 teams and see how they get on.

Having watched it back, I don’t think Thaler had a bad game at all. The two sin bins were from intervention from the video ref, and like it or not they are consistent. The frustration there, and we tried it on multiple occasions as did they, staying down to wait for the video ref to look at it. If you stay down, you’re injured, go for a HIA. Crowther did for the Walmsley one, but Lees, Ratchford and Sironen (think he was complaining about his neck though) didn’t.

The difference between them and us in the “decision winning” areas is they are really effective at getting tangled in tackles. From the channel 4 coverage you can hear Thaler on multiple occasions saying “trapped in”. But, why would you trap in a player when you’ve won the ruck? Why when you’re getting up to try and get a quick play the ball would you deliberately trap in a defender? That is my frustration with the officials, I’m not certain that they truly understand the game. Not the black and white rules, but the intricacies that the elite players try to manipulate to get that extra 1%.

We had it with Charnley, he was superb at winning penalties. Often making a complete holy show of trying to get up and deliberately trapping arms and legs in. It’s learned behaviour, but it just seems that we don’t learn it.

The RFL should be looking for some coaching from ex-players and coaches, not to look at the black and white offences, but those in the grey. The context of the game often is the indicator.

It’s the same with the 6 again rule. I think there was a period in the second half where we got three in our favour but all on the first tackle. That is coached in. Slow it down, don’t let us build momentum and just defend one more tackle than allow us to roll upfield. Referees should know better, it’s borderline a professional foul. And that isn’t just St Helens that do that, it’s all of those teams and players who a) fully understand the rules and b) can think clearly in the chaos. In the same circumstance, we lose the ruck and end up giving away the penalty by shooting off the line as quickly as we can to try and correct the problem (see the Crowther and Bullock penalties yesterday).

It’s frustrating, but that’s the difference between the best and the rest. It’s evident in the use of the sun bin time too. We kicked a penalty, messed around with players not getting back behind the play the ball and delaying the restart and wasted 30 seconds by not binding the scrum and calling time off, that’s probably 2:30/3 minutes worth of 10 without one of their middle men. Complete mindlessness. Can’t cope in the heat of the battle, leadership void and no game sense either on the pitch or those on the sidelines sending messages on.

Absolutely spot on....the fine margins and what makes it harder to take it was a rinse and repeat of the league game a couple of weeks ago

We have no players with game smarts that’s for sure. In our quality teams of the past you had a few players with such intelligence; Briers, Hodgson, Monaghan and even Morley had nous. This lot are a bit thick.

There, there, nevermind hey!

Saints made many breaks than we did, and the score could have been far wider. The squad that DP had put together wasn't good enough, we need to fix the deficiencies and move forward. Hardly an unexpected result, but watching the NRL GF this morning, the quality of SL is now so, so poor in comparison.

Agree. At Wigan it was effective. Tomkins mastered the art, and everyone followed suit. Charnley looked like the odd one out with us, and ultimately gathered groans from the stands rather then the oral foaming that you get from Wigan, Saints and the former Leeds south stand (lost its intimidation, through being rubbish and making a fancy new stadium). The pressure on the ref is so intense, everyone is adamant that it’s a penalty, and demand it. And if they don’t get it, the next 50/50 just creates a louder noise, more demand, more pressure.

Catalan got it wrong for years, using that noise to feel aggrieved to segue into unbridled aggression. Whereas the good teams keep that pressure up. The opposition know that one mistake and the whistle goes, they’re under the microscope. The whole thing builds the tension.

I see it differently. Saints bombed about 3 clear tries. They didn’t get out of first gear and we’re still never in any danger despite Warrington giving everything.

I think you were watching a different game to most of us.

So finally watch it back. I tend not to watch back on TV the games we lose that I've seen in person as the result won't change and usually I'll only see things that will wind me up. However games we win I can watch over again.

My take from yesterday Saints should have gone in at half time out of site but they didn't through a combination of poor execution and a very effective scramble defence. Matty Ashton was immense and I bet Dufty never had as many tackles in a game though must of the time they ran at him.

The first Saints try was forward I don't think Bell threw a pass backwards all game.

2nd half was better and the key turning point I felt was the Mata'utia knock on, that wasn't. I was a definite high shot from Roby his second soon after he had already been given a talking to, for me he should have gone to the bin but he was never going to, given the story that was being told.

Other than that thought Thailer actually had an OK game 50/50 call seemed to go both ways and the sin bins were both sin bins. I thought Walmsleys looked worse but either he is the greatest actor in the world as he looked genuinely bemused but the replays looked like he took the shot with his shoulder.

Few other things live vs TV, live the weather was awful really awful and I think suited Saints as with heavy ground and wet ball we weren't able to go to the edges or hit at pace the Matty Ashton juggle and the Philbin drops were what might have been moments.

Also I really couldn't stand Amors commentary it was like listening to Wire games on radio Merseyside, it ruined a decent C4 broadcast, he wasn't in the same bias league as Wilkin or Clarke but it just got my back up.

Whatever the channel i have them muted if Wilkin or Amor are in the box.